DSM Power

[DirectConnection]

I met a guy at the gym and he makes manifolds for turboed cars. Doesn't seem to have knowlegde about the in's and out's but does have some hands on experience. He was talking about his friend's DSM and how it's going to make 500whp EASY. Right now, it's nothing more than a mildly modified DSM and probably lays down no more than 230whp judging by the way they were talking. When I told him 500whp isn't cake, he got all hyped and told his friend that was there that. I am hearing other "newb" DSM owners talking about this summer and making 650+ etc...they are buying some serious go fast parts, but can't even work on the car them themselves.

I know 600whp out of a DSM (streetable) has been done, and 400whp out of one is common and actually about as difficult as 330 out of one of our's, but are they being realistic, or living a pipe dream?


I mean, Larry laid down 505whp on a stock T-III motor besides turbo, intercooler, exhaust and fueling. But, there hasn't been a wave of 500whp+ T-III clone cars since. Know what I am saying?

There's alot of DSM owners out there, so it makes sense that there are a ton of 500+ whp cars out there, but not going to be a cakewalk if you don't know much about how an internal combustion engine really works.

[abarguy]

The basic DSM motor is a pretty solid piece, but I gotta believe that 600+ hp still isn't that streetable. That and I think a lot of sites promote HP exageration!
I own Larry's old car and, to be honest, would rather drive my 270HP Spirit R/T because Larry's old car has to rev more than I care to on the hills in Pa. I couldn't believe the first time I needed to downshift to make a mild grade. It's definitely "streetable" but not as smooth as the stock turbo ones. Larry's old 4SFED4 is just a toy now. A brutal toy but a toy none the less. OK, just plain scary! I learned a lot more about turbo car mods by owning it, which was one of my goals. Thanks, Larry!

[DirectConnection]

Quote:

Originally Posted by abarguy The basic DSM motor is a pretty solid piece, but I gotta believe that 600+ hp still isn't that streetable. That and I think a lot of sites promote HP exageration! I own Larry's old car and, to be honest, would rather drive my 270HP Spirit R/T because Larry's old car has to rev more than I care to on the hills in Pa. I couldn't believe the first time I needed to downshift to make a mild grade. It's definitely "streetable" but not as smooth as the stock turbo ones. Larry's old 4SFED4 is just a toy now. A brutal toy but a toy none the less. OK, just plain scary! I learned a lot more about turbo car mods by owning it, which was one of my goals. Thanks, Larry!

So how is the old R/T treating you? Have any good stories with it?

The DSMs...are a tried and true platform that is still evolving, but just wondered if they are becoming the cat's meow as it's all I have been hearing lately. (big claims...but no ET to prove)

[88-16V-Lebaron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirectConnection So how is the old R/T treating you? Have any good stories with it? The DSMs...are a tried and true platform that is still evolving, but just wondered if they are becoming the cat's meow as it's all I have been hearing lately. (big claims...but no ET to prove)

It is really easy to get 600WHP if you buy the right parts on a DSM. It is very hard to keep it alive with those parts if you don't know what you are doing and how to tune it. I am sure that many "600HP" setups bolted on lasted hours before motor death ensued. An expensive death before the eventual partout.

[abarguy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirectConnection So how is the old R/T treating you? Have any good stories with it? The DSMs...are a tried and true platform that is still evolving, but just wondered if they are becoming the cat's meow as it's all I have been hearing lately. (big claims...but no ET to prove)

No real good stories yet as I really haven't learned to control the beast. First time I really opened it up, with two friends in the car, I abruptly soiled myself!
I swear I considered right on the spot selling the car it scared me so much!

Update on the car, though, is I relocated the alcohol pump so it no longer hangs below the front bumper. I removed all of the nitrous stuff and, unfortunately, I had a full 3" mandrel bent stainless exhaust from Cindy installed, including the (eek!) catalytic converter. The cat is unboltable for track trips, but I needed it to be street legal for Pa.
I'm working to remove the fuel cell and put the original fuel tank back in operation with the high pressure pump.
I still have yet to put a real intake filter on it, but bolted a K&N short filter right on the turbo for now...the largest that would fit in the space. This part I thought would be the easy part but I didn't realize just how much room 4" pipe takes up under the hood.
Haven't taken it to the track yet since getting it. Maybe this year. I'll have to see if I can get Opticon and some friends around here and Jersey together and cruise Englishtown Raceway park one weekend.

Tom O'Flynn
3 X 1991 Spirit R/T's
1996 Sebring convertible
1969 Swinger 340

[Ondonti]

I dont think those claims are off. 500whp is attainable with cams, big turbo, and good exhaust manifolding with a stock shortblock.

If you cam the 4g63 it will make power out to 8500 rpms on a bone stock block/head. DSM LINK is a great thing for these guys too.

With a build head and shortblock huge #'s are very possible. Still, most people have to much problems with their DSM's living on jackstands to ever have time/money to make it fast

[The Pope]

The short block sucks, the 4G63 crank walks all over and will toss belts and eat clutches. The head is not too bad. Some mild head work, and HKS 272 cams. A bolt on tube header with the right turbo. Big FMIC and the lines to match and a big exhaust. Then it is a matter of the cal, which can be found for a 500 WHP DSM. LArry is doing his own setup from scatch. People with a DSM can simply buy the whole combination of parts off the shelf and do it. Many don't have the cash. Then the car is not going to tolerate the power and break. So can it be done real easy? Yep, very easy actually, all bolt ons. But the kind of cash though, wow, were talking thousands and thousands. Once over 500 WHP the body is all that is left alone. Whole suspension and drive train comes out and is replaced with race parts. 4 CVs are changed out, and 2 diffs and one center section mod, then drive lines. LMAO, Larry needs just a diff and a couple axles. You can have nearly $6,000 just beefing up the drive train not including the engine and trany. Weeeee.

[88-16V-Lebaron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope The short block sucks, the 4G63 crank walks all over and will toss belts and eat clutches. The head is not too bad. Some mild head work, and HKS 272 cams. A bolt on tube header with the right turbo. Big FMIC and the lines to match and a big exhaust. Then it is a matter of the cal, which can be found for a 500 WHP DSM. LArry is doing his own setup from scatch. People with a DSM can simply buy the whole combination of parts off the shelf and do it. Many don't have the cash. Then the car is not going to tolerate the power and break. So can it be done real easy? Yep, very easy actually, all bolt ons. But the kind of cash though, wow, were talking thousands and thousands. Once over 500 WHP the body is all that is left alone. Whole suspension and drive train comes out and is replaced with race parts. 4 CVs are changed out, and 2 diffs and one center section mod, then drive lines. LMAO, Larry needs just a diff and a couple axles. You can have nearly $6,000 just beefing up the drive train not including the engine and trany. Weeeee.

6-bolts never crankwalk

Get the Kevlar belt and 86 your balance shafts and your timing is covered.

Replace your diffs and motor mounts and your driveline is good till 500 whp.

The breakage occurs from not tuning properly grenading your setup from detonation or overfueling.

You don't need the 4,000 dogbox trans till you are in the high tens.

[T2 shadow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope The short block sucks, the 4G63 crank walks all over and will toss belts and eat clutches. The head is not too bad. Some mild head work, and HKS 272 cams. A bolt on tube header with the right turbo. Big FMIC and the lines to match and a big exhaust. Then it is a matter of the cal, which can be found for a 500 WHP DSM. LArry is doing his own setup from scatch. People with a DSM can simply buy the whole combination of parts off the shelf and do it. Many don't have the cash. Then the car is not going to tolerate the power and break. So can it be done real easy? Yep, very easy actually, all bolt ons. But the kind of cash though, wow, were talking thousands and thousands. Once over 500 WHP the body is all that is left alone. Whole suspension and drive train comes out and is replaced with race parts. 4 CVs are changed out, and 2 diffs and one center section mod, then drive lines. LMAO, Larry needs just a diff and a couple axles. You can have nearly $6,000 just beefing up the drive train not including the engine and trany. Weeeee.

6 bolts will never walk.!
And yes 500 hp is easily done with a 4g63 .
There is a guy in evansville with a 500 hp at the wheels talon ! He has has built the motor and stuck a 1,700 dollar dual ball bearing turbo on it. People who underestimate the dsm power have no idea what they are messing with. I will see if I can email his performance shop and get video of his talon on the dyno. He offers rides in it all the time !
And you won't build a dsm on a turbo dodge budget either.

[saw wave analog]

a huge gt ball bearing turbo, injectors and a pump, dsmlink, cams, a big intercooler, and a clutch. 600hp is a lot, its definately pushing the stock internals to their limits but it is possible. the 4g63 is argueably the best built stock 4 cylinder engine that exists.. the stock head is excellent, the stock internals are all forged and dont need to be upgraded until you are making serious power.. and imo, crankwalk is mainly a myth, its blown waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion on these forums.. if i were building a 600hp dsm i wouldnt build a 7 bolt just because the 6 bolt is known to be the better block.. but i know a shitload of dsmers, and was in to them long before td's, and for every million times ive heard a story about a friends brothers uncles 2g crankwalking, ive only actually seen it happen to someone once or twice maybe.. and never anyone locally, just on the forums.

it does happen, but its no reason to avoid a 2g.

[The Pope]

well, I don't hang out on DSM Forums, I just have to go with what I have experianced. Then I add to that alittle what I've heard. I've worked on only 4 of them. A 90' TSI AWD, then a 94' GSX AWD auto trany, 96' GS, and a 98' GSX AWD. The 1G is by far the best car mechanically. Suspension, bigger turbo the little things not to mention lighter. Then there was the 2G. Sweet 18,000 mile origanal, loaded with leather seats all the goodies. With 17" factory wheels and V rated tires it handled worse than my old Shelby Dakota. Out on the road course this thing slide and howled, with big tires. Then there was a recall on it, ever get under one and look at the front suspension? The lower ball joints come appart, no A arm. The 90' TSI is a crank walking fool. This thing is so bad it throws fan belts, we won't get into the clutch problems. Did it run good? Yup, real well. Strange how all that movement didn't effect how it ran. Then back to the 98', shifting over 6,000 RPM torched the turbo. It shot sparks out the tail pipe, then a puff of smoke just at the up shift. Hit 4,000 RPM and it was out of breath. The GS had a A420, in a 2G tank it couldn't hardly move it. The one I liked best, had no troubles with was the 1G GSX AWD auto trany car. No troubles, drove nice, faster than the 98' 5 speed lol. I had 2 people want me to work on 2 different 4G63 NA cars that tossed a timing belt. Wow what damage. Today you can still buy basically the same drive train in an ugly car. Yet import people are all over the EVO. But hey, ever notice how people into American cars love all different years of them and the vast majority of Import people only like new Imports?

[GLHandGTS]

The 90 TSI you speak of technically should not/can not crank walk, you have a problem elsewhere unless someone magically popped a 7 bolt motor in there when nobody was looking. 90's are 6 bolts and there are no cases of walk on the 6 bolts... and I've been into DSM's for a long time around some seriously fast hardware and seen one crankwalk personally..... that's it.

600 whp won't happen on a stock shortblock. If it does it's a fluke and will probably bust itself up in a heartbeat. 500 whp on the otherhand is attainable. What the other part of the equation is, is htat 400 whp in a 1G is a fast car! That's an 11 second ride in the right hands. For comparison a 280whp 1G around here goes 12.7's.

They have an amazing aftermarket and they're really not that bad to modify price wise. You can do it the cheap way and get pretty far, or you can go the expensive way and go WAY far.

Also, a welded center diff solves that problem, and a good shep built tranny w/ his front diff takes care of that, and a stock 4 bolt rear end does pretty well. Stock axles will last a while as well if you don't put slicks on them, fairly similar to our cars.

We've currently been building my brother's 98 TSI AWD car over the past couple of years. We're hoping that it should bust the 800 whp barrier at a minimum off spray this season, but we'll see. If anybody wants some pics if we get the "I don't believe you BS" I'm sure I could email you a couple to post up, I don't know how.

Aaron Miller

[Omniboy]

this is what 2g owners have for pets

[Omniboy]

here it is walking out of the car

[saw wave analog]

i threw some konis into my 98 gsx and that was one of the nicest handling cars ive ever driven. i dont know how it would have done on a road course or something like that, but around town it was just really precise feeling. everyone that rode in it said it was the nicest driving dsm they had ever been in.. all for the price of nice shocks on the stock springs.

the auto 1g's were lame, they had a shittier turbo than the 2g t25, a weaker cam, smaller injectors, and a computer tuned to suck. if you drove an auto 1g that was even remotely as fast as a 2g 5 speed, then the 1g was modded or the 2g was ****ed up because i know how both cars drive stock and the auto 1g is the weaksauce.

the reason 2g's burn up their t25's is the super duper shitty ass plastic blowoff valve they come with stock that leaks at 13psi. people turn up the boost on the stock bov and overspin the hell out of the turbo and kill it. i did that on my 98.. i replaced it with an fp ported bigt28 and a hardpipe and type s bov and discovered that the mbc setting that got me 15 psi on the stock turbo and bov was spinning the bigger t28 to 25 psi. t25's suck anyway, they should all be thrown directly into a trashcan.. the only engines they are suited for are racing lawnmowers


the 1g 6 bolt/lsd/awd combo is the best dsm easily, but 2g's arent that much different, and actually have several advantages.. the main one being the better head.