Project Civic Swatter... Need advice on parts

[ednutcracker]

thanks daytonaturbo87 youve described it better than me !! i tend to forget things when i havent worked directly on them

[DaytonaTurbo87]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ednutcracker thanks daytonaturbo87 youve described it better than me !! i tend to forget things when i havent worked directly on them

lol, I know how it goes, but that was a lot of typing!

[85lebaront2]

Unfortunately everything is going electronic controls these days. I never liked it either, but I'm getting used to it. You can go from carbed to turbo if you are willing to do the work, I did. As for the HO engine stuff, I don't know about the real early HO engines, but the 85-86 models did use a feedback carb, I have one sitting here that needs rebuilding, it's the original from the Turismo. It had a different head PN than either the G or the 782 fast burn or swirl style. I dodn't have it handy right now. The block was decked .040 according to my FSM, and a different cam sprocket and timing belt were needed to compensate for this. My son used to drive this car until he burned up 2 engines. He then took over my 87 Horizon 2.2L NA with 5 speed. If you could find a nice Omni/Horizon 5 spd, you would be halfway there, Matt used to irritate the local ricers with the 4dr Horizon, and when he had reason to drive it again this past summer, he remembered why he liked it (his sister has it now). You can convert an Omni/Horizon into a GLH pretty easily with the information posted here, but don't do the body exterior, keep it looking plain jane. Good luck with it!

[XxhorizonxX]

find a supercoupe supercharger. keep the hat that attaches to the top of it and strap a k+n to the end of it. make up a bracket and if your car dont have ac hang it off the front above the alternator and rig up a pulley and belt to drive it. only thing will be making an oulet to run to either first a small intercooler such as a probe unit. that would be easy to plumb. then into the boost box hat thingy. or back around to the hat such as that pictured on the carb in the picture on a previous post. run a rising rate regulator and boom there yah go. id use a weber carb though. and dont use to much timing or milling of the head. i dont know where you would find one of those hats though or boost box or whatever you call it. ive been looking for one my self.

[ednutcracker]

of the carb box has to be done custom i believe a machine shop can point you out, i believe turbo is a better bolt on since theese cars have manifolds for them

[XxhorizonxX]

each has its pluses and minuses.

supercharger gotta make a bracket to hold it and pulleys to run it. but no oil or coolant returns to drill in the block or tap into. plus it would be pretty unique looking.

turbocharger gotta source a manifold from junkyard. gotta source coolant and oil lines. gotta drill the block for oil and coolant return and feed. plus you got that hot turbo heating up the manifold back there.

both would be about the same difficulty to plumb up and either one you gotta find that hat for the carb. and i would intercool either one of them somehow regardless. to each his own i suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ednutcracker of the carb box has to be done custom i believe a machine shop can point you out, i believe turbo is a better bolt on since theese cars have manifolds for them

[ednutcracker]

youre right but i think a turbocharger would be easier to find, the only thing he has to tap is that crack cover for oil return everything else is there but yea the supercharger would be different ,,its a nice idea too either way you go its all boost!! ahh and the supercharger will eliminate lag so thats a plus

[DaytonaTurbo87]

Supercharger would be cool, but you could get done at least 1/2, maybe even 2/3 or more of the turbo conversion just for the cost of a supercharger. Plus I like the fact that a turbo puts no, or at least not much extra load on the engine during steady cruising, which will make life easier on a n/a with that compression. And for turbo cooling, you already have a coolant line running from the engine to the intake manifold, just also run that coolant line through the turbo and you're good. And the turbo needs oil, just grab an oil sending hex from a turbo car at the junkyard. It's pretty much a glorified t fitting. One side goes to the oil pressure sender, the other to the turbo oiling line. And for the the oil return for the turbo, since they didn't have turbos in 83, I don't think your block has the pre-exisitng plugs for the turbo oil return. Just braze a fitting onto the back of your oil pan, directly under the turbo but as high on the pan as you can, and then run the oil return line from the turbo to the fitting on the pan and you're good to go. Doing that is more work there too, but doesn't cost very much and you can get all the parts for so cheap!

[cleverklutz]

Wow! You guys are awesome! I sort of thought that turbo charged cars were around a fair bit before the electronics were. I knew they had non-electronic turbos on diesel tractors, but they just keep on building more boost the higher they rev. (tractors don't rev past 2krpm so it's no problem there.) I'm definitely going to check into putting a turbo on as it sounds like a really good idea. Also it looks like I can do this gradually. My first step will be to get the weber and change my distributor. Then when I can find something else to drive and can afford the downtime I'll look into doing the turbo conversion. I need to have the head off anyways because my head gasket is puking oil and needs to be redone, so it would be ideal then to do that work when it's all apart. Thanks so much for your help guys!

P.S. I'm just curious, this isn't something I need to know now, but what's the max psi turbos can run non-intercooled. I'm thinking 9 psi is that right or not? I just want to know for the sake of knowing...

[XxhorizonxX]

if you keep it carb i wouldnt run more then 5 or 6 psi. you could have detonation problems plus they got higher compression. plus the carb might have some trouble fueling anymore then that. plus low octane fuel. dont overdue it or you run risk of dumping a piston or 2. i would intercool it somehow or run some sort of alcohol injection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleverklutz Wow! You guys are awesome! I sort of thought that turbo charged cars were around a fair bit before the electronics were. I knew they had non-electronic turbos on diesel tractors, but they just keep on building more boost the higher they rev. (tractors don't rev past 2krpm so it's no problem there.) I'm definitely going to check into putting a turbo on as it sounds like a really good idea. Also it looks like I can do this gradually. My first step will be to get the weber and change my distributor. Then when I can find something else to drive and can afford the downtime I'll look into doing the turbo conversion. I need to have the head off anyways because my head gasket is puking oil and needs to be redone, so it would be ideal then to do that work when it's all apart. Thanks so much for your help guys! P.S. I'm just curious, this isn't something I need to know now, but what's the max psi turbos can run non-intercooled. I'm thinking 9 psi is that right or not? I just want to know for the sake of knowing...

[ednutcracker]

start at 5 psi that should be enough on the internals to be a daily driver and not break, on your internals/compression i wouldnt run more than 9 psi intercooled or not, plus i recomend getting a turbo head gasket, if you can find some spacers for the head that would drop a significant amout of compression i believe its 1 point, ask the supercharger guys they get it with the kit... and send us photos because its gonna be kool

[DaytonaTurbo87]

Fel Pro makes a head gasket spacer, and it drops you .3 compression, not 1 point of compression. I've heard the fel pro head gaskets for the 2.2/2.5 suck though. Someone may make a thicker head gasket, which along with the shim may lower your compression more. So with your compression, and if you use a carb, low octane, and the alcohol system I described I think you could push your boost up to 5 or 6psi. But that would be pushing it, running crappy gas is really holding you back, hard. If you can fill up with higher octane, do it, even if it cost a few more bucks. If you run 91 and intercool it, I think 9-10psi would be possible with some careful tuning of the carb jetting.

The main thing holding you back other than compression and gas is the carb. The efi on the turbos can adjust the mix perfectly on the fly and do a great job of keeping the mix perfect at all boost levels. Non intercooled t1's with the alcohol injection can put out some serious boost levels. While the carb can do it too, you'll need to fine tune it and your rrfpr carefully, especially at higher boost levels. The last thing you want to do it screw up your engine.

But yeah, you can do things in stages. First I'd say do your head gasket, and while you have the head off, put a turbo head on, a head gasket spacer and a good gasket. You'll have to temporarily swap in the cam out of your now shelved n/a head.

Next I'd do the fuel pump, a in line electric one, and take off your mechanical fuel pump, and put a block off plate(can be found on any fuel injected 2.2/2.5) over the hole. At the same time I'd get the rrfpr installed. Don't worry, fuel pressure won't actually rise until you have some boost in your system. Then get your carb, and make sure you get one that's setup for boost, or that at least you know how to set up for boost. And I know the supercharged applications can use the stock distributor and spark control computer, so there's no reason you couldn't. Though you'd have to retard your timing. Then when you have some time you can spare for some downtime you can mount your turbo and plumb it and all that.

Just do everything slow and do a lot of research in advance. And like I said, the turbomustangs forum is a good place to ask some tech questions about carbs and such.

[sgtarky]

clever all this anamosity against computers. HEll your a young guy get with the program. I understand the oldtimers with 30 years of mechanical expericience that can set dwell in the dark not into computers. I know guys in their mid 20's say"heck I dont need to know how to use a computer" yeah have fun doing yard work skippy.

[cleverklutz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sgtarky clever all this anamosity against computers. HEll your a young guy get with the program. I understand the oldtimers with 30 years of mechanical expericience that can set dwell in the dark not into computers. I know guys in their mid 20's say"heck I dont need to know how to use a computer" yeah have fun doing yard work skippy.

IMHO computers are fine as long as they're in the house. I'm a computer nut actually (As in desktop computers). I've built several computers and enjoy overclocking them to the max, it's very similar to building up a motor actually, as there are many things to take into consideration during overclocking. I love computers, just not in cars. In a car with only mechanics, there are only mechanics that can go wrong. In a car with mechanics and computers, you have two things to go wrong. I know that computers are fine for diagnostics, but the computers I would have to deal with are OBD I and have very limited diagnostics. And if the diagnostics are busted themselves it doesn't help much. The biggest factor for me is computers=more money.

I will agree though that computers are better for the precise fuel metering that is needed on turbo engines at high boost levels. They're also great for compensating for plugged exhausts/air intakes and changes in elevation on the fly. If it comes with it that's great, then I'll live with it. But for my application, I think I'll be better off without computers.

Here is something that backs up what I have to say about electronics in cars. This is the nightmare a guy went through with the computer driven BS Insight that Honda makes. Enjoy it's a good read!
http://www.hondasucks.ca/

[MoparNut]

Here are some part recomendations for you. The only header I know of right now, and I wholesale performance parts, is Hooker 5707hkr. If you are looking for a rising vacumme fuel regulator, MSD ignition makes one. Look in their catalouge to find it.
And the HO engine in the early chargers was different in a couple ways, the head was not. The block was milled to give you some compression, it had a knock sensor and a feedback carb (terriable carb). It also had a advanced timing gear on the cam.
You can do some with out turbo'ing, you can do lots with a turbo car. I have had both, enjoyed them mostly. Never got into modding them much. If you could find a nice shape 86-88 turbo car, get a performance computer off of FWDperformance.com and enlarge your intercooler, you will be so much farther ahead. I looked at doing up my 86 Charger to a HO engine, and putting in a cam, header, better intake. It just wasn't worth it.

I have owned:
1983 Dodge Aires NA (couldn't kill it, I tried)
1986 Chrysler Laser T1 (fast, fun, and mint and died in a broadside accident)
1988 Chrysler Daytona T2 shelby (fast and fun and a beater)
1986 Plymouth Turismo HO N/a (Was as fast as my Laser I think, rusted away)
1992 Chrysler Lebaron GTC T1 (electronics died)
1986 Dodge Charger NA (killed it myself when it wanted too much money)
1993 Plymouth Sundance TBI (current)

I loved the turbo cars but they do take patience and knowledge. But if you get the right year, and right car, you can do so much more then if you start with the 80's Chrysler econobox. But if you want to do what you are planning, go in knowing as much as you can, and go in with the knowledge that everything you do will also decrease the reliablity of the car. You would be best off to have a second car around as back-up in case it doesn't work.
Have fun any which way.
David