Rampage Carburator

[ShelbySean]

how do you know its a 6520? so its a p.o.s?

[Wizard]

Yes. real POS!

http://www3.sympatico.ca/jpero/allpa...6520small2.JPG

Um, go with weber DFEV 32/36 (must get tuning jets and rebuild kit for weber and adapt correct throttle linkage) or last choice; dirty 5220 and find a shop to rebush the shaft bushings on 5220 and rebuild it. Last choice is rebuilt 5220, worst of worst.

Cheers, Wizard

[xtrempickup]

and if you just want a running driving Rampage, just get a Holley replacement, thats whats on mine now , it runs fine

[DaytonaTurbo87]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90TurboVan Carb'ed cars can run great, but they (at least in my view) are much less reliable in the long run. With fuel injection, every time I hit the key, the car starts. I don't have to crank for a while in the winter, don't have to wait for it to warm up so it doesn't stall, don't have to play with adjustments that are hard to get to and set. I guess I just don't like running on more than 100 year old technology when its that easy to swap to fuel injection. Its also easier to just swap tanks from a donor car, being as the Omni/Horizon tanks are the same as Rampage ones. I might also add that carburators are volume based metering devices, not mass based, and I kind of like accuracy.

90TurboVan, have you ever actually owned a well tuned carb'd car? The 440 in my plymouth satellite runs a 850cfm carter thermoquad right now. I spent an hour or so tuning the primaries and secondaries as well as the choke. I'm not saying the tune is 100% perfect, but neither is it on ANY production 2.2/2.5 tbi. Anyway, my carb'd 440 starts great, even when cold it doesn't require as much cranking as any 2.2/2.5 tbi car I've owned. One revolution of the engine and it fires right up, I barely have to touch the key. I can't say the same about all the TBI cars I've owned. I don't have to sit there and let it warm up at all before taking off, although taking off early causes it to run on the fast idle when driving so I normally let it warm up for 30-60 seconds or so before leaving, depending on how much of a rush I'm in. It was pretty simple to tune and it never stalls. A well tuned carb car doesn't run like crap like you are pretending. A tbi car won't make more power than a compably sized carb'd car, nor will the carb make more power, all things being equal. But start modifying the engine with better flowing exhaust, intake and ported head and all the sudden the flow and tune of the TBI system can't keep up, nor can it be easily upgraded while the carb can easily be upgraded or retuned. IMO the swap to TBI is a waste of time. TBI guys are junking the TBI setups and going to turbo because TBI is crap and has absoloutely no performance potential. Only real advantage to it is the ability to get in and go with no worries about warming up, plus with closed loop o2 feedback, mileage on the tbi should be better than a carb for it's ability to adapt easier to temp changes. Over age the tbi's hold up better, the carbs on these cars seem to be quite tempermental, but in their prime do run very very well. My beater 84 shelby charger 2.2HO carb all stock runs like a champ. Smoother and more powerful than any TBI car I've driven, and I bought it for $200. So good that in fact I'm going to be dumping that motor into my dad's rampage to replace the junk 2.2 that's in there now. Before you start ragging on carb'd cars, try owning one that's well tuned and operating properly.

Stick on a 32/36 webber until you can afford to drop in a complete turbo setup.

With that said, I have gathered all parts required and converted the intake manifold for my 440 to run port EFI. For perfect fuel distribution, max tunability and closed loop wideband o2 a/f operation, port is the way to go. I wouldn't even waste my time considering a tbi.

[2.216vturbo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizard Yes. real POS! http://www3.sympatico.ca/jpero/allpa...6520small2.JPG Um, go with weber DFEV 32/36 (must get tuning jets and rebuild kit for weber and adapt correct throttle linkage) or last choice; dirty 5220 and find a shop to rebush the shaft bushings on 5220 and rebuild it. Last choice is rebuilt 5220, worst of worst. Cheers, Wizard

Wizard this is the first time I've seen that the Webber should be rejetted to run on a Rampage. Any ideas what sizes of jets? How about with a good exhaust, free flowing air filter and a TBI roller cam?? does that change the fromula any? Can we under jet the primary and compensate with a larger secondary. Seems to me mileage would be better this way when driving lightfooted, if it's even doable...

Alan

[Wizard]

Any time you obtain a carb for any reason, are generally jetted but not so precise to put on particular engine even two twin engines are not alike.

Tulip's carb (5220) was from another old 2.2 car, and I transferred jets from old ruined carb. Fired up quick and runs well but MPG stinks (13-15MPG) and idle bit shaky. Need work on jetting (any tips on good numbers on set of 5220 jets for 2.2?)

The weber 32/36 DFEV I have is not put on yet as I need to scare up money from my meager funds for tuning jets kit and rebuild kit. Also need to finish the linkage.

The Weber 32/36 DFEV I obtained is set up for aircooled VW 1.7L, as I know so far, it is set up to be slightly richer to help with heat issues on aircooled engine which can't tolerance the leaner mixtures (hotter) water cooled engines can take.

Cheers, Wizard

[2.216vturbo]

Well the Webber we got that came from Ebay was rebuilt already, I told my Bro to open it up and check it out, including the jet sizes so at least we would know what was in there... The Rampage is running much better now but still nowhere near the mid 15's that a few guys chimed in with on their equvalent carbed Rampage set ups


Alan

[88shelby]

i have one for sale 32/36 weber. look in the for ad in the for sale section.
scotty

[Wizard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 88shelby i have one for sale 32/36 weber. look in the for ad in the for sale section. scotty

Do you know the jets and emulsion tubes numbers that was set up with your 2.2 and what it was set up for? Racing or for MPG? Remember to say which type of Weber 32/36 as there is about 4 different models.

I have 32/36 DFEV.

Cheers, Wizard

[88shelby]

i have 2 carbs
one built for racing (no choke) it has some mods but im not sure.

the other one i one that i bagged off of a charger in the junk yard it was clean comared to the rest of the engine compartment. i bolted it on and drove on it for 2 years always passed colorado emmissions.

as to numbers im not willing to tear either of them apart. as cheap as im willing to let them go for the new owner can have at them.

i also found another weber torn down in a box not sure what it is but it can go with either carb at no extra charge.

scotty

[Zed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wizard Yes. real POS! http://www3.sympatico.ca/jpero/allpa...6520small2.JPG Um, go with weber DFEV 32/36 (must get tuning jets and rebuild kit for weber and adapt correct throttle linkage) or last choice; dirty 5220 and find a shop to rebush the shaft bushings on 5220 and rebuild it. Last choice is rebuilt 5220, worst of worst. Cheers, Wizard

Mr. Wizard, I was under the impression the DFEV had the linkage on the same side as a stock carb and was a minimal of fuss to install. Can you expand?

[Wizard]

The weber supplied throttle linkage have no provision for throttle valve cable and too short and in wrong offset (even for throttle cable) vs the cable mounting points.

The fix is make a bracket to support a short shaft to operate weber to hold a throttle linkage plucked from the old carb or throttle body so you have choice of running manual or automatic.

There is other ways. This is my preferred design for my needs.

Cheers, Wizard

[90TurboVan]

DaytonaTurbo:
No, I have never owned a real carb'ed car. Also remember that your 440 has NO emission controls, which are most of the problem with the 4 cylinder carbs. I also agree that a properly tuned carb car will start all the time, run great, and have no driveablility problems, but again this goes back to your 440 having no emission controls. It is much harder to get the 4 cylinders to run right. I do disagree with a carb car can make just as much power as a TBI or MPFI car. Your carb does not compensate for ANYTHING but the volume of air going through it. TBI takes into account the pressure of the manifold, temperature of the air entering the engine, barometric pressure, and injects fuel based on the mass of air entering the engine which is all that matters. TBI also allows you to change A/F based on RPM, throttle opening, load, and coolant temperature. MPFI is definitly the way to go, but remember that it is merely an extension of TBI, the only advantages being better cylinder to cylinder distribution and the possibility of individual cylinder trims.

I think most of the problem with fuel injection is that people don't know how to tune it. If I spent an hour tuning my 2.5 TBI Rampage with DCal and a dyno, I could get it to start first revolution, and make more power than your carbed 2.5 all day and in every weather condition. TBI could definitly keep up with modifications, all you have to do is tell the computer that you've changed stuff. If our systems would use a MAF sensor, you wouldn't really even need to do that within the range of the sensor, as long as the computer was tuned in the higher flow ranges.

I don't mean to rag on carbed cars, I know many make big power with carbs and have great driveability, I just think that if you have the choice of running a much more accurate and efficient system, why wouldn't you? I spent a day converting my Rampage to FI, a week if you include gathering parts. TBI cars are everywhere, in the time this thread has gone on, that Rampage could have been converted and running on TBI or turbo. It'd take the same amount of time to swap a turbo drivetrain in too, being as you have to do the exact same things for both swaps.

Also, my initial suggestion to go TBI was not knowing that he planned to go turbo later on. The only reason I went TBI is because I didn't have any turbo motors/wiring harnesses/electronics handy, had everything for a TBI swap, and already have a turbo van to work on. And if I'd do it over again, I'd try and fit a 3.0 with a 5 speed in there

And finally, if you just want a running car, carbs are everywhere in junkyards, why buy a new one? Mine was drivable with carb that wasn't working right.

[allmotor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90TurboVan DaytonaTurbo: No, I have never owned a real carb'ed car. Also remember that your 440 has NO emission controls, which are most of the problem with the 4 cylinder carbs. I also agree that a properly tuned carb car will start all the time, run great, and have no driveablility problems, but again this goes back to your 440 having no emission controls. It is much harder to get the 4 cylinders to run right. I do disagree with a carb car can make just as much power as a TBI or MPFI car. Your carb does not compensate for ANYTHING but the volume of air going through it. TBI takes into account the pressure of the manifold, temperature of the air entering the engine, barometric pressure, and injects fuel based on the mass of air entering the engine which is all that matters. TBI also allows you to change A/F based on RPM, throttle opening, load, and coolant temperature. MPFI is definitly the way to go, but remember that it is merely an extension of TBI, the only advantages being better cylinder to cylinder distribution and the possibility of individual cylinder trims. I think most of the problem with fuel injection is that people don't know how to tune it. If I spent an hour tuning my 2.5 TBI Rampage with DCal and a dyno, I could get it to start first revolution, and make more power than your carbed 2.5 all day and in every weather condition. TBI could definitly keep up with modifications, all you have to do is tell the computer that you've changed stuff. If our systems would use a MAF sensor, you wouldn't really even need to do that within the range of the sensor, as long as the computer was tuned in the higher flow ranges. I don't mean to rag on carbed cars, I know many make big power with carbs and have great driveability, I just think that if you have the choice of running a much more accurate and efficient system, why wouldn't you? I spent a day converting my Rampage to FI, a week if you include gathering parts. TBI cars are everywhere, in the time this thread has gone on, that Rampage could have been converted and running on TBI or turbo. It'd take the same amount of time to swap a turbo drivetrain in too, being as you have to do the exact same things for both swaps. Also, my initial suggestion to go TBI was not knowing that he planned to go turbo later on. The only reason I went TBI is because I didn't have any turbo motors/wiring harnesses/electronics handy, had everything for a TBI swap, and already have a turbo van to work on. And if I'd do it over again, I'd try and fit a 3.0 with a 5 speed in there And finally, if you just want a running car, carbs are everywhere in junkyards, why buy a new one? Mine was drivable with carb that wasn't working right.

a carburated 2.2 will get better fuel milage than any TBI or MPFI system. I have proof of that. you can run a carburated engine leaner (makes more NOx emissions). the carburators used on all 2.2's are acutally a bastardized weber carb. this is the exact same carb used on 2.3 fords, 2.3 vega's and many other 4cyl cars. hands down the weber DGV series carb is the best choice for these engines with proper tuning. you don't want to use some worn out high mileage carb. one HUGE problem with doing so is they have excessive wear on the the throttle shafts causing a manifold vacuum leak. this inturn will cause a lot of driveability issues (which is the primary failure of all 2.2 carbs 5220 or 6500). I still stand behind my 350hp carburated 2.2 against any EFI engine. I don't dislike efi, it's perfect for the lack of skill people perpetuating our planet... pretty much idiot proof for consistant driveablility

[90TurboVan]

What don't you people understand about this? Carburators or EFI are simply ways of getting fuel into the airstream. That's all it is. Carburators are less accurate and based on the volume of air. You do know that the mass of air is all that matters, right? And the mass is related to the volume by the density? And that carbs have no way of measuring the density? Every form of EFI measures the mass of air and injects fuel based on that.

You can tune an EFI system to run just as lean as you want it to, you just have to tune it, no different from what you have to do with carbs. Have you tried designing a proper MPFI manifold, throttle body, and intake system for your 350 horse 2.2? Bet you'd make slightly more power, much more consistently, and more reliably.

Quote:

Originally Posted by allmotor I don't dislike efi, it's perfect for the lack of skill people perpetuating our planet... pretty much idiot proof for consistant driveablility

WTF? I don't dislike carbs, but they're perfect for the lack of skill people tyring to make their cars run. It takes much more skill and knowledge to properly tune an EFI system, and when you're done, you get exactly the A/F ratios that you want consistently. I remeber my grandfather telling me how he used to work on a 440 with two 4's on it, and how it would run like hell when he got it tuned right. Then the next day when the humidity changed or it got a little warmer, it ran worse.