Why not AWD

[joker5k1]

This is probably going to sound like a really stupid idea, so I'll apologize from the beginning, 20 hour days are killer. But as I understand it the primary difference between an AWD and 4WD set up is the center differential. That being said why couldn't you just swap in a 4WD trans and rear end and then do a custom center differential. I realize there's probably a lot more to it then I'm thinking about right now. But I think that could be a fairly simple and cheap swap. Any ideas on how difficult/stupid/inefficient/"why the hell would you bother" this would be?

-Joe

[Ondonti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by joker5k1 This is probably going to sound like a really stupid idea, so I'll apologize from the beginning, 20 hour days are killer. But as I understand it the primary difference between an AWD and 4WD set up is the center differential. That being said why couldn't you just swap in a 4WD trans and rear end and then do a custom center differential. I realize there's probably a lot more to it then I'm thinking about right now. But I think that could be a fairly simple and cheap swap. Any ideas on how difficult/stupid/inefficient/"why the hell would you bother" this would be? -Joe

are you thinking RWD vs longitudinal AWD/4wd?????

[joker5k1]

That would be correct. I realize the implications of this, but I thought it might be worth throwing out just to get a feel for the idea.

-Joe

[RoadWarrior222]

Two halfbaked thoughts...

Since the 1.7 engine in the L bodies was sourced from VW, is there any chance we might find any VW/Audi 4WD parts that will more or less bolt up? Or that can be modified more easily than just trying to hack to fit the first 4WD drive system you come across.

Second thought, this would be experimental, but I'm thinking something might be tried with hydraulic rear wheel motors driven by the pump in the tranny. Thinking there might be some mixing and matching possible in between older torqueflights for a beefier pump. Might not get a lot of power down like that, but could work pretty well.

Then there's the redneck method of course, saw pics somewhere of what looked like a mini bolted on top of an S15 frame.

[Glaive]

Ok - so I see AUDI was mentioned....

Here is a thought... AUDI quatro - either in 5 or 8 cyl trim... transmissions. Basically they radiator is set to the left (drivers side and back). The trans has two FWD style axles and a rear output shaft that goes back to the rear axle.

Now since the 2.2/2.5 is a shorter motor - without measuring... it might be possible to use adapt the front axles and trans location... and then of course do the rear axle... whatever IRS unit you deside on.

The main thing is positioning the trans so the output/axles are in proper alignment with the front wheels... No idea how much shorter the 2.2/2.5 motor is... but the engine bay in most FWD is not exactly long... so could be an issue.

The other thought...
I have a 94 Lebaron with the v6, since the transmission - is basically the same as the AWD trans from the VR4 car, except that the AWD output shaft assembly is not installed. As I understand it, their is just a cover plate - pull the coverplate... install the AWD bits or swap trans... then install rear axle... then adapt 4 cyl instead of v6 motor and sort out EFI/wiring.

Then again.. you could in theory use the twin turbo v6 from the Stealth/3000 along with trans, harness, etc... stuff it in lebaron or other FWD...

Lots of ways to do the project and some might be lower budget.

Personally if doing a some sort of hybrid hotrod... I like the AUDI especially the V8 quatro donor idea... LSD available, capable of handling decent power, cheap car-parts.com source for parts.

Engine and trans mounted like a traditional RWD...

[tkelly27]

To integrate a differential into most, if not all, of the readily available part time 4wd stuff (I.E. trucks and jeeps)... I don't know how to put into words how difficult it would be. From what I understand, it's not that the one has an open/limited slip diff and the other has a locked diff. It's that the one doesn't have a differential at all. Which is why they kick ass in the snow and off road, but will break things on the dry pavement and have a high and low speed.


You're suggesting having driving the rear wheels with a pair of turbines driven by the line pressure from the transmission? Have you seen the size of the pump? Lol, (tounge in cheek of course) you'd be better off squirting it out the back for jet propultion : D. It's worth a shot if you've got lots of spare time, and if you get it to work... many props to you.

I hear audi I think $$$$!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_whe...by_design_type
There's a list of common AWD systems and how they operate.

If you have a lot of access to junkyards with AWD transmissions, you may want to take a dodge bellhousing and see what you'd have to do to it to bolt to a VW or whatever you want AWD setup. Can the VW stuff take any kind of power? There's no real point to any of this unless you are making a ton of power, or want a time, labor, and money intensive snow cruzer.

I'd be more inclined to use a mitsubishi AWD system as they at least have nearly the same layout and are proven to hold big power if you pray to them properly.

A subie setup with a longitudinal TD engine might be interesting, but you might have to either have your engine hanging out the front of the car, or move your front wheels back. Which may not be such a bad thing if you were going to drag race. Altered WB AWD TD...

[Glaive]

The mitsu stuff is good choice to a point.

I still favor the AUDI stuff... Considering Dahlback and others have done AWD conversions to many a VW... and run 1000hp like in the AWD AUDI POWERED GTI Conversion.

I think a quatro donner... well whatever... money vs. power... how much power.

As for the Lebaron setup vs Mitsu.... well the AWD 3000 setup... DOHC version of v6 with turbos and awd... SAME TRANS... lebaron just doesnt have the rear output shaft and RWD parts...

An AWD Lebaron based on mitsu might be fun... as for expense... thats a different issue.

If and thats a big if I wanted to build an AWD anything that wasnt awd, I would start with something like the 924 or 944, toss the stock 2.0 or 2.5 engine, use VW Rabbit front or the audi front stuff... since the 924 and early 944 share the same control arms and other bits... not to hard to figure out axles and such... mate the AUDI quatro trans to a TD 2.5, line it all up. Swap in the AUDI rear, possibly shortening axles.

AUDI donor - less than 1000, TD motor even less... for a running motor.

Then you have a 2000 - 2500lb sports car with AWD and atleast 250-300hp with the potential for a lot more .... but talk about a frankenstein... still...

Especially if you took the 924 approach and added the Carrera GT or GTS or GTR or Holberg C or D production body kit with that fiberglass... 2000lbs.... well would be interesting.... hahaha but not really in the spirit of an AWD TD.

[Ondonti]

The mitsu stuff can handle any power level you can attempt to throw at it.

there are upgrades now that didnt exist even 1 year ago.


Also that chrysler lebaron does NOT have a mitsu trans and is NOT compatible. The mitsu engines have transmission on the passenger side.
Chrysler trans are on drivers side.

I still think it would be fun to run the chrysler AWD stuff and apply a lot of the things learned from similar systems and their failures.
Personally I would weld the center dif and then see about LSD's in both front a year or possibly spools.
Then i would worry about the transfer case.

[Glaive]

Ondonti your right about the configuration of the trans and engine... no denying that, but I will say everything that I had been reading about the trans configuration and the motor, seemed to indicate that the Non-turbo v6 used the same trans, less the AWD components, but what the information now that I re-read it didnt say was as it applies to the Mitsubishi only, not the chrysler setup. So bad information in - and here I was spitting it back out.

Glad to hear their are upgrades, that makes all the difference. Very Nice.

Thanks for setting me straight. All that aside, I like the 94 I have, but wish it was a TD 2.2/2.5.

I have a supercharger on it right now, 6 PSI and its the v6 is a blast, wasn't exactly the easiest setup, I understand the limit is about 8, before ring issues. Still loads of fun and more than a few surprises to the unsuspecting.

[Ondonti]

just pull your pistosn and open up the gaps :P

[t3rse]

first off, the evo is the only logical solution, although parts aren't cheap. There's no reason you can turn the motor 180 for 1&2 g trans (modify oil pickup or better yet dry sump and a few other interesting "fixes").

1g dsms are much heavier than 2700# or whatever you said. The smart solution there is to put a 1g drive train into an 89 mirage, which has been done and has been proven to be capable of low 10s on street tires.

an option no one has considered is the 91 isuzu impulse RS. awd, turbo setup like ours with a 1.8L engine, and have been in the low 12s so the drivetrain is a least somewhat beefy.

[sandmcrew2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmay2 Why not AWD ? Ok i know this topic has been beat to death. But why doesnt it exist? I know everyone tries to use a TRUE AWD setup. But if the engien and trans are turned sideways... i see one axle coming out of each side of the transmission. I call that my front and my rear driveshaft. Now, you can probably source axle pieces and build something that will work for the front.. and for the rear use an intermediate shaft and get a driveshaft made that will fit into it and into a rear differential.. and... WHY NOT!? someone tell me

This exact concept has been used with a Front wheel drive saturn engine/ transaxle placed sideways in a professional rock crawler, using the outputs as the yokes for their front and rear driveshafts. I remember seeing this about 2 years ago on a TV show focusing on this thing. It is a cool idea and WILL work. Youguys who are saying the spider gears etc are not strong enough, you think a rock crawler isnt hard on parts? These guys are running dana 60's with chromoly shafts, and they wouldnt build a vehicle to compete with if breakage was an issue. You have to remember that there would be significantly less torque placed on the differential in the transaxle because of the gear reduction at the front and rear differentials in the AWD/ 4WD vehicle: 1/3-1/4 the normal torque (3:07-4:10 for example).

-Jerry

[bfarroo]

But to build a street drivable vehicle you would have to use very high gearing in the front/rear ends if you want to be able to get any speed out of the vehicle. How fast does a rock crawler go? 10 maybe 20 mph wide open. If your going to use the transaxle in that configuration you might as well put a full spool in it. Then you'd never have to worry about the diff and you'd have a 50/50 split of power all the time. the placement for it in a street vehicle would very impractical but in a ORV setup would probably work very well. If I ever find time and run out of other projects I'm sure I'll try it.

Benji

[sillywabbit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by t3rse first off, the evo is the only logical solution, although parts aren't cheap. There's no reason you can turn the motor 180 for 1&2 g trans (modify oil pickup or better yet dry sump and a few other interesting "fixes"). 1g dsms are much heavier than 2700# or whatever you said. The smart solution there is to put a 1g drive train into an 89 mirage, which has been done and has been proven to be capable of low 10s on street tires. an option no one has considered is the 91 isuzu impulse RS. awd, turbo setup like ours with a 1.8L engine, and have been in the low 12s so the drivetrain is a least somewhat beefy.

If you use an EVO VIII trans - it's already facing the right direction. Mitsu turned its motors around the "US" way on the VIII. Just make an adapter plate to reun an EVOVIII trans. It's THE easiest and most logical solution. As for the rear, you could adapt an evo rear or any 1 or 2g DSM.

The hard part of the job will be fitting the AWD transfer case around the K-frame and getting the trans lined up so that the driveshaft runs through the tunnel TD's already have. If you have some $ - probably around 5 grand - a garage - some time -= and wleding skills - you could do this.

Now, as long as we are talking about crazier swaps, another option would be a custom K-frame (like the RWD k-frame exline makes - in fact that one may work for this idea) and a TD motor mated to an audi quatttro 5 speed. It's a longitudinal design, so it would be like a RWD layout only it would sit farther forward. This would probably NOT work in an Omni but it could be done in any other TD (including charger - because you can cut the front end since you have a nose cone to work with). The same applies to subara, its the same layout and you could do the same thing. It would even fit in an omni IF you used the subie engine. However, unless you buy the STI trans its not a good idea. The WRX trans is junk.

All of this is just theory of course. The fact remains, the only REASONABLE method is an EVO VIII trans. It's not the only way, it's just the BEST way.

Ont he sdame note - if you just wait for the new turbno wolrd engine from the SRT caliber - it "should" mate to the EVO X trans which is ALSO facing the right direction. Time will tell though. Although they are a shared design, its possible mitsu or chrysler could change the bolt pattern on the block. You could also swap in the enire EVO X drivetrain. However, it would be a mitsu designed version of the world engine then which means different head work, different VVT and a 2.0 instead of a 2.4.

[phantomrt]

Another possibility is the transmission from a Mazda 323 GTX. Turbocharged AWD Ford Escort in Layman's terms. I have no idea how strong/capable they are, but the transmission is on the correct side.

An AWD turbododge is no where near impossible. This is a project I'd be tacking if I had the time/space.