Photos of turbo 3.0 setups

[mwinkle353]

The turbo isn't good due to it's not an actual 57 trim T04E wheel. Brent found out that it's actually a KKK K27 wheel in a machined housing. It has a similar compressor map to the 57 trim, but it's smaller. That's why he's not liking the turbo he first had.


Wink

[c2xejk]

I believe the 57 trim has narrower islands.

How much of a difference it makes, I am not sure. I pushed a small turbo (from an '87 2.2L) to a very traction limited 98+MPH in the 1/4 mile in DaytonaStein with two people onboard... To say that turbo was off the efficiency island is a bit of an understatement!

In a few weeks I might see how much of a gain you can get from a BIG T3/T4 hybrid...

[Reaper1]

...and DO NOT get the Chinese built turbos...you will be simply wating your money as they are VERY cheaply built.

[mwinkle353]

I wonder how long Brent's would have last him, if he hadn't busted the pistons in that motor?

[mwinkle353]

By looking at the 50 trim compressor map, it's very wide and looks like it would be just awesome on our 3.0L motors.

[c2xejk]

50 or 60 trim should work just fine...

[Ondonti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwinkle353 The turbo isn't good due to it's not an actual 57 trim T04E wheel. Brent found out that it's actually a KKK K27 wheel in a machined housing. It has a similar compressor map to the 57 trim, but it's smaller. That's why he's not liking the turbo he first had. Wink

Thanks for mentioning that.

The K27 though is actually the same size as the "super" 57 trim. Flows 49 lb/min......but it has a very poorly shaped compressor chart. a 50 trim will give better efficiencies, and for something with a lot of mods (maybe some of KMP's ported heads or stuff like that) then a 60 trim would be awesome. I think our motor is perfectly sized for a 60 trim if you modify the engine well.

Putting it on a smaller motor is a bad idea unless you can run 7000+rpms.


Anyways, with that k27. I accidentally got that turbo (didnt really understand how big it was but it was cheap). In the end I was happy to find that a big turbo can do a lot of good things. That inspired me to try something a little better.

[john1320]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneslow30 Damn, should I find my waterproof boots?? watch out for the puddles from thepissing contest?

^Me too, LOL!
A bit late- but I demand we open an area for SPO!
We get some people that need to vent PRIOR to saying something retarded!
There are some who want to see TOPIC discussion, not POO spewing! HEHE!

Odonti, are you with us? Vote for SPO!
Anyhow -back to the topic!

[dustbuster]

All the non-chinese t3/t4 turbos I can find are a bit pricey.
What about the TD05-16G, the big one from the EVO 3?Road Race Engineering has new ones for $535 , that actually sounds like a good price to me, and it actually comes with the wastegate actuator.

[Ondonti]

For anyone who is wondering.......

STS started in Utah, and there is only one running STS F body in the whole state, and the one that is still running says he would not have purchased it if he could do it over again. The oil system does not work. I just saw pictures of it because it came in to a shop that someone on our local forums works at.
Remote mount does not work for a car you want to put mileage on.

[NA2ndgen]

That's odd. There are a couple of remote systems around here, and the guys I asked said they have had no problems. They could be lying though. You know how some guys are. They would do anything, say anything, just to appear to be correct. - shrug -

I can well believe there would be oiling problems, to overcome, when they are mounted all the way at the very back of a car though. One STS I saw was mounted between some guys gas tank and rear bumper. OUCH That didn't look like a good idea to me. I also wonder just how long that will last in rainy weather. Plus you can clearly see it.

I am thinking of replacing my CAT with a turbo. It would be just after my already coated exhaust manifold. I bet I could figure out a way to deal with oiling issues. Pan>pump>turbo>small hi-flow cooler>pan, or something like that.

[Ondonti]

The problem is those pumps burn out every 10k miles or less.


they are very expensive. The only clue you have of your pump going bad is that your turbo center section will be ruined. The turbo failing is what tells you things are going wrong.

here are some pictures of the only F body in Utah that I know of that is still running with an STS kit.

http://www.utahcountyracing.com/foru...c=1236.new#new

Its not a real cop car.........but the police let the owner dress it up like it is.

[NA2ndgen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti The problem is those pumps burn out every 10k miles or less. they are very expensive. The only clue you have of your pump going bad is that your turbo center section will be ruined. The turbo failing is what tells you things are going wrong.

I spoke with Brandon of STS this morning. He is not 'the big guy boss', but he is a part owner, and an authorized representative who is directly involved with the company. He was very personable and knowledgeable.

He said their older kits did have a pump problem, and here is what they have done about it so far and plan to do in improving the situation further.

They now offer pump options. You can choose either a puller or a pusher pump, and pumps of varying sizes and pressures including hi-flow pumps. Right now their pumps have a 1 year warranty, and after that they cost roughly between 200 to 350 dollars. YIKES You're right they ain't cheap.

Their kits now come with a pressure sensor also, which alerts the driver to fluctuations in oil pressure, within 1 psi (+ or -) on the return line. The sensor is adjustable. Right now the alert system they offer is a buzzer, and they are working on improving that with more sensitivity and some sort of heads up visual monitor. They are weighing either using LED lights like Dawes Devices have, my suggestion, or pressure gauge(s).

According to them, it makes sense to me, remote mounted turbos do not get anywhere near as hot as manifold mounted turbos do. They run 200-500 degrees cooler, depending on the application, and so oil coking is not going to happen regardless. Pump failure would of course lead to center section failure. Though not nearly as fast as it would for a manifold mounted turbo, with even so much as inadequate lubrication, let alone complete lube failure.

I still believe remote mount turbos have their advantages, for some applications, and I am convinced it is a viable option for some folks.

Brandon agreed they need to update their webpage on the lubrication issue. He also agreed they need to expand from the "authorized distributer installer" system because of it's "inherent weaknesses", which I am sure you can guess, and begin to sell individual components directly. He said they are heading that way now, and it wont be long before they do. They are already doing more and more direct sales, of their kits, all the time now.

Thanks for responding the way you did this time Ondonti. I sincerely do appreciate it. Thank you.

[Ondonti]

I will warn again.

300-350 deg F (depending on your oil choice) is all it takes to coke the oil in the bearings. A standard turbo works at 1400-1700 def F. thats 1100-1400 deg in an STS system.

Their systems are more expensive then a normal turbo setup. That is my biggest problem with STS. Usually people's first projects cost a lot more then they ever hoped for.


STS is a huge supporter of their own product, because they make huge profits on every kit they sell.

$1000 in parts and labor for a $5000-8000 system. That doesnt even include install. You at least realise the ned for having a resevoir.

As far as the pump problem.....they might offer different pumps, but the point is that none of those pumps will last. They are very expensive too. If you dont replace it at least every year, you are asking for trouble. Also, as anyone who deals with intercoolers knows, there is something called heatsoak.......so while the first 2 seconds of boost might be slightly cooled by intake pipes, the pipes will soon heat up.

What is funny about their intercooling effect claim on their pipes.......is that people run the same boost on normal turbo setups with no intercooler..........the idea of an intercooler is to expose all air molecules to the colder surface of the metal in the intercooler. Lots of small passages and turbulators to touch the molecules. In a 8 foot long tube, that isnt going to happen. My IC piping is pretty long, and it doesnt help + it gets heatsoaked before the intercooler. so half of my IC pipe would be not removing any heat from the intake air.

The air from the turbo gets almost all of its heat added because of the compression effect the turbo has. pressure * volume = temperature*n* t

as hot as your turbo might be, the air going through it is there for fractions of a second,and you arent heating the air much because of heat transfer.





The examples I try to use are from local people who have tried STS stuff. We are the home state for them and they have no respect here, especially from owners. They tested their twin turbo remote corvette kit on a guys car here..........it was SLOW......and only $10,000 on the pricetag.

Biggest problem.....pumps need to be replace, and the continual replacement of them adds up. Making your own warning devices will not be free, or actually prevent failure. If your pump fails, it is an electrical pump, so its going to likely fail suddenly......not a slow failure like a mechanical pump. The issue here is that a gravity drain setup can never fail unless your motor has failed. If your motor has failed then your turbo (unless physically destroyed by the motor failing) will be fine.

When your turbo is unable to drain oil though, you are in trouble. 1000+ degrees of heat in 5-10 lb of metal will be surrounding a few millileters of oil in the cartridge. The oil burns at only 300-350 degrees. It would be better to have NO oil in the cartridge since 1000 deg will not cause a turbo to fail. Like we know......the turbo feed will never fail unless the motor fails, so we can assume that near the moment the pump fails.....if you dont have the motor turned off, you will blow the turbo seals and then experience the oil coking.

STS's website acts like all their systems work perfectly and customers are happy. Just like Rippmods pretends their supercharger kits work perfectly on Sohc 6g72's. The actual product is a far cry from what the companies claim.

most people on the internet who talk about what a good financial deal the kits are.......think it would cost 10,000 to turbo their car in the standard way. It probably would because we are talking about people who dont actually work on their cars.

I think the daytonastein shows that you can run a standard turbo setup for not much $. In the future Im sure people will be able to do it for quite cheap if they really think about it and can do most of their own work. Our engine bays have LOADS of room,compared to all the cars people isntall remote kits in. Minivans have LOADS of room. The fact that we have so much room is what goes against the reason remote kits were created (to turbo cars with very little engine bay room without modifying the engine bay).

I supported winks idea of going remote because he wanted to use a mechanical oil pump........that ended up being too difficult to work out.

[NA2ndgen]

OH dang it all to heck anyway. sigh Well I am convinced now. Thanks for cluing me. Many of the claims made by STS don't add up. You are totally right.

What you said below never occurred to me, and it more than calls all of STS's claims into question. Stupid of me. I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti 300-350 deg F (depending on your oil choice) is all it takes to coke the oil in the bearings. A standard turbo works at 1400-1700 def F. thats 1100-1400 deg in an STS system.

What you said, about the simplicity and reliability of gravity feed oil return, also makes complete sense. I am a big fan of simple and elegant engineering anyway. I don't want to rely on iffy pumps with such short lifespans. Your word on the insufficient interior surface area contact for cooling, would apply to both oil and air, and so no wonder those pumps fail.

I always thought STS was way too expensive also, and I didn't intend to buy one of their kits. As if I could afford one anyway.

Since I just want volumetric efficiency instead of boost. I wonder if a small rotex type SC would suit my needs better. Would a small turbo properly mounted, generate a substantially lessor amount of heat, or just a little less? I know I wouldn't need an IC, but would the turbo housing be cooler also? Can heat block coating, on the exhaust side wheel or something like that, go far enough in limiting heat transfer to the case? I know the coatings aren't like magic or something, and they can only do so much. Just asking.

You shattered my perty little dream. I hope you're happy!

Thanks for taking the time Ondonti.