Free horsepower?

[NA2ndgen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roguetrip the 3.0 come with a windage tray, dunno any 3.0 owners that have any, but a few 2.5/2.2 guys got them, maybe you should ask them how they like theres

Do you think adding a scrapper to the tray will help at all? I am thinking of getting one since they are only $50.

[DustyR/T]

had one. It only made my oil pan leak like a sith to this day. As well, It wasn't cut well. It was supposed to be CNC machined, but when I turned it by hand it hit the scraper. I tried shaving it where it hit, but it was in multiple spots. I just said forget it and took it out for good.

[RoadWarrior222]

First time I heard that 3.0s have windage trays in, is that all applications, all years or only later ones?

I read up about crank scrapers a few weeks ago, and most of the stuff I read suggested that they have to be individually fitted to the engine anyway, whatever the supposed accuracy of the cut. So I figured that next time I had my oilpan off, I'd just make templates out of cereal packets, carve one out of a bit of mild steel, and file it to get the final fit and it wouldn't be a hell of a lot more work than buying a ready made one. However on an engine with a windage tray in already, the gains might be a bit marginal, although a lot of us are running heavy oil in these motors to keep consumption under control so maybe it would help more on those.

Ozone is a form of oxygen molecule O3, that is less stable and more reactive than O2. It is formed when O2 molecules are split by high energy electrical discharges. These happen hundreds of times a second in the distributor cap. Many problems can be caused by build up of ozone in the distributor cap, premature oxidisation of the contacts, breakdown of insulating material, flashover between terminals etc. All of these will weaken distributor performance, so that's reason enough to deal with the ozone in some fashion. Many distributor applications now have designed in vent holes to "let in fresh air" and purge the ozone. That's a bit of a waste really, here we have this particularly reactive form of oxygen and we're just gonna let it drift out of the dizzy cap and spoil the polish on our valve cover or something? So what we can do is apply manifold vacuum to it, and suck it into the engine, result = a marginally bigger bang, more complete combustion maybe. Here's an article that explains it....
http://fueleconomytips.com/index.php...id=59&Itemid=2

regards,

Road Warrior

[c2xejk]

Crank scrapers by definition are supposed to have to have tight clearance. I believe I have read that 0.030" clearance is optimal. Thus some tweaking may be needed even if it is CNC cut...

Odds are if you dont' have to tweak it, the gaps are going to be too big...

[Ondonti]

I wanted a scraper but I dont see how you could install one and not have the pan leak around the crankshaft.

[NA2ndgen]

Since we already have windage trays it hardly seems worth the trouble then.

Oh well. I did find a set of four 17" KONIG wheels, with decent tires, for $175.00 today though.

[DustyR/T]

Quote:

Originally Posted by c2xejk Crank scrapers by definition are supposed to have to have tight clearance. I believe I have read that 0.030" clearance is optimal. Thus some tweaking may be needed even if it is CNC cut... Odds are if you dont' have to tweak it, the gaps are going to be too big...

Ok, that's like saying IMO that piston rings have right clearances, so if they are too tight, "tweak" them.

And I agree w/ Brent about the oil leak. I think I mentioned that above. Believe me, I tried it 3 different ways. W/ Mopar RTV, W/ indian head shellack,
and w/ the gasket and RTV. It didn't keep it from leaking. And I prepped it right and took my time. I was sooo pissed.

[RoadWarrior222]

Welllll, piston rings are meant to bed in, crank scrapers aren't, they need clearance for hot running. Only ones that are meant to bed in are teflon edged ones. I've heard 0.7 - 1mm clearance, which is about 30 thou to 40 thou.

[DustyR/T]

I'm sorry, the head ache I went through with them just does not justify putting them in. I would never again. I like the perks they potentially offer, but I'd feel bad for someone who had an obstacle in the way of their oil pan who had to do the gasket again or drop the pan because of clearance issues w/ the scraper.

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyR/T I'm sorry, the head ache I went through with them just does not justify putting them in. I would never again. I like the perks they potentially offer, but I'd feel bad for someone who had an obstacle in the way of their oil pan who had to do the gasket again or drop the pan because of clearance issues w/ the scraper.

Richard,

Ok, I think it is time to set a few things straight.

First of all, Samantha and I delivered the scraper to you prior to you paying for it which was a big show of trust. You never did pay for it despite subsequently promising to do so on the phone and when we met you in person over where you worked on SR54 (auto parts store).

I don't live very far away (maybe two miles or less) and would have even come over to your parents house and made a totally custom scraper that fit perfect. I think I can say that after now making thousands. But you did not contact us about fitting problems which is a pity. I learned about them when you complained in a post.

Second, you were repeatedly trying to use aftermarket gaskets on the pan instead of just silicone RTV which was OEM. In another post I tried to explain the mathematics to you of why using gaskets on a pan with a curved Z-axis designed for RTV will not work and why it will distort your pan when you try to torque it down. And it sure did. And it sounded like it also distorted the brand new pan you got midway through ("It only made my oil pan leak like a sith to this day."). If I remember correctly you wrote that you went through at least 5 installs and had leaks -- at least a couple without the scraper at all. This had nothing whatsoever to do with the scraper but a lot to do with your being young and relatively new to working on cars.

Yes, scrapers do offer a lot of perks which is why you see the technology all over OEM Mopar products and even engines from Mitsubishi.

Kevin Johnson
Ishihara-Johnson Crank Scrapers

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti I wanted a scraper but I dont see how you could install one and not have the pan leak around the crankshaft.

I assure you that thousands of our customers have been successful in making leak free installations.

[Ondonti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson I assure you that thousands of our customers have been successful in making leak free installations.

I know the benefits of oil control, i just dont see how you can get the crank area to seal when you raise the rest of the oil pan surface.

How thick is the scraper?

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti I know the benefits of oil control, i just dont see how you can get the crank area to seal when you raise the rest of the oil pan surface. How thick is the scraper?

We currently make the scrapers for, say, the 2.2 in 16 gauge high strength steel -- that is about .060". If you measure the anti-crush washers in the one piece turbo gaskets this is about the same.

For pans that have curves in the Z-axis but use strictly RTV in OEM installations we can make scrapers from 18 gauge and weld in internal strengthening inserts if they are needed. I have an 18 gauge bracket here on my desk and it measures out at .045" thickness. Silicone RTV would have no problem effectively filling and sealing joints of either thickness.

[Kevin Johnson]

Most of the dyno tests we have had reported to us have been before and after with a windage tray already in place. Increases average about 2-3% of the NA output.

Good cases in point are with the big block Mopar.

Our scraper on a 440 showed just under a 14 hp increase at 6500 rpm -- that was over and above what it showed with an excellent louvered Milodon windage tray and CRE girdle in place (louvers are also forms of scrapers). This is from a customer who takes the time to do before and after dynos of each added part.

John Shaul reports to us that he runs the quickest Max Wedge and over 30 plus years has tried many, many windage control products. He said that his quickest ETs came when running just our scraper -- no tray. Normally I would recommend running a tray on a street car and road race car but that is what he found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadWarrior222 First time I heard that 3.0s have windage trays in, is that all applications, all years or only later ones? I read up about crank scrapers a few weeks ago, and most of the stuff I read suggested that they have to be individually fitted to the engine anyway, whatever the supposed accuracy of the cut. So I figured that next time I had my oilpan off, I'd just make templates out of cereal packets, carve one out of a bit of mild steel, and file it to get the final fit and it wouldn't be a hell of a lot more work than buying a ready made one. However on an engine with a windage tray in already, the gains might be a bit marginal, although a lot of us are running heavy oil in these motors to keep consumption under control so maybe it would help more on those. -snip- regards, Road Warrior

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by c2xejk Crank scrapers by definition are supposed to have to have tight clearance. I believe I have read that 0.030" clearance is optimal. Thus some tweaking may be needed even if it is CNC cut... Odds are if you dont' have to tweak it, the gaps are going to be too big...

The scrapers are CNC cut with a plasma cutter. I could farm them out and have them cut by water-jet but would have to charge at least double. Let me know because the guy across the street from me has a water-jet.

There is a great deal of variance in factory cranks -- unfinished seams, surfaces, different molds, etc.

What we do offer are CNC cut plastic templates (CNC controlled router) that you pre-fit to your rotating assembly and indicate any changes desired. Those patterns are then scanned and the one-off scraper made. Lots of people do this.