P-body 24v updates

[Ondonti]

you need to datalog your passes.

I was going to say its down on power but if you look at the back half mph gains, they are about the same on the last pass. Its just that you are losing a couple mph in the 1/8th. 1st and 2nd gears when you shift and even 3rd have a big gap in the 3.77 trans (which is why I said he 3.50 final is junk when mixed with 3.77 gears). Its probably exposing a hole in your tune where its bogging. before the 1/8th. Then once you get past the 1/8th its in the better part of your tune.

So i am gonna say that your timing above 6000 rpms probably aint gaining you any power, its your low rpm tune that is messed up, and its probably just fuel. I would be wary about timing because the 24v needs a lot less timing then the 12v and when hp gains from advancing the timing stop you are on the verge of detonation or already there!

Post up all your times from the last 2 outings including the complete timeslip. Add in any changes you made for EACH run.
Then we can sit down and pick apart some of what you did and the effects. Include the gears used and shift points and timing changes etc. Backhalf MPH gains are an especially good way to see the power your car is putting down.

[Shadow24V]

ok, ill give you the last 7 runs and some of the 14.8s. when i was running the 14.8s i was only playing with the fuel a little bit. i was working more on the cruise part for MPG gains. i have used the same timing map up until yesterday when i added 3* at WOT. The only major change engine wise was i had to switch injectors from the 210cc ones that died on me to some 270cc ones from a 3.5. I've been re-tuning after a rescale since then.

I really didn't change anything on these 7 runs except going up and down on the WOT fuel a little. no timing changes really.
___Date____RT_____60'_____1/8_____MPH____1/4_____MPH____shift point___stuff
08/12/09___0.162___2.436___10.055___69.97___15.534___88. 86___6700___.000 sportsman tree new trans, clutch Alum FW and LSD National Trails Raceway – Columbus OH
08/12/09___0.220___2.485___10.048___71.24___15.452___89. 94___6700___.000 sportsman tree new trans, clutch Alum FW and LSD National Trails Raceway – Columbus OH
08/12/09___0.042___2.403___9.919___71.24___15.308___90.3 5___6700___.000 sportsman tree new trans, clutch Alum FW and LSD National Trails Raceway – Columbus OH
08/12/09___-0.006___2.341___9.828___71.58___15.200___90.45___6 700___15.200___0.000___.000 sportsman tree new trans, clutch Alum FW and LSD National Trails Raceway – Columbus OH
08/14/09___0.225___2.302___9.953___71.19___15.434___88.7 8___6000___.000 sportsman tree new trans, clutch Alum FW and LSD National Trails Raceway – Columbus OH
08/14/09___0.460___2.364___9.864___72.15___15.203___91.1 2___6800___.000 sportsman tree new trans, clutch Alum FW and LSD National Trails Raceway – Columbus OH
08/14/09___0.272___2.319___9.875___71.59___15.240___91.8 9___6800___.000 sportsman tree new trans, clutch Alum FW and LSD National Trails Raceway – Columbus OH

heres the one day i hit 14s - A534 with 3.77FD and an SBX LSD and the same tires i have now
___Date____RT1____RT2_____60'_____1/8_____MPH____1/4_____MPH____shift point___stuff
10/10/08___0.934___0.434___2.364___9.902___73.14___15.21 7___92.13___6000___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___1.186___0.686___2.311___9.805___73.20___15.12 4___91.91___6000___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.800___0.300___2.662___10.136___74.01___15.4 10___92.94___6000___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.733___0.233___3.610___11.160___73.90___16.4 20___92.82___6000___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___1.146___0.646___2.355___9.742___74.22___15.00 3___92.84___6000___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.934___0.434___2.304___9.747___73.87___14.99 4___93.66___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.814___0.314___2.295___9.610___74.23___14.85 8___93.54___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.815___0.315___2.291___9.614___74.22___14.87 6___93.73___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.755___0.255___2.342___9.700___74.15___14.94 2___93.82___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___1.086___0.586___2.394___9.778___74.12___15.02 4___93.73___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.823___0.323___2.307___9.634___74.42___14.84 7___94.29___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___1.120___0.620___2.305___9.655___74.11___14.88 8___93.89___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.865___0.365___2.411___9.868___73.89___15.10 6___94.11___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.682___0.182___2.380___9.742___74.30___14.95 5___94.27___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.743___0.243___2.370___9.702___75.00___14.89 6___94.61___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.746___0.246___2.442___9.833___74.56___15.04 6___94.27___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.697___0.197___2.400___9.727___74.85___14.91 9___94.48___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway
10/10/08___0.790___0.290___2.377___9.671___74.71___14.86 5___94.49___6700___.500 sportsman tree New York International Raceway

I could attach my log files (i think) but anyone would need to download and install MegaLogViewer to see them and interact with them. Ill post 2 screenshots from a 14.8 and a recent run for analysis


Heres a screenshot from my 14.847 run


And my latest 15.2 run

[Ondonti]

Well looking at your 14.8 your afr is actually pretty terrible. I can also see that your trap speeds went up during the night which is probably just showing hot day temps vs colder night temps.

So with different altitude and weather your numbers make sense but your AFR's are even more messed up now then they were before. At least before they were somewhat stable.

[Shadow24V]

lol, ok so can you point out a few things on the AFR end to me?

I figured i'd be running slower at NYIRP vs here in Ohio but its reversed... i guess the elevation isn't that different... 1010ft at NYIRP and 905 for columbus OH. i guess i was basing it off of the school's altitude of 2123 *shrug*

[Ondonti]

on your 14.8 your afr's bog down to what looks like 9's at the top of each gear. Not erratic.

On the slower more recent runs, the afr is VERY erratic and much leaner.

I would also ditch the 2500 rpm and 3500 data cells and use those cells to fine tune the upper rpms.

Or ditch the 2000, 3000, 4000 and add 5000, 6000, 7000. Thats probably the best idea. 2000 and 3000 are completely redundant since the info is almost the same.

Typically you want the most data cells around your peak torque area because thats the area where knock is most likely and fine tuning can bring greater results. So having data cells of 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 would be a good idea in that realm of thought.
Heck, you might end up going 4000 4800 5000 5300 5700 if thats where your torque peak was.

[Shadow24V]

i see. i was shooting for the 13:1 peak power AFR but i wonder if my o2 sensor placement is giving me lag or slight misreadings. its about 2' away from the rear bank and about 5' from the front.

currently my rpm bins are 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5500, 6500, 7500
would you suggest something like 800, 1000, 2500, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, 6000, 6500, 7000, 7500?

Peak torque stock is at 4500 and peak hp at 5500. my dyno was pretty accurate to that as well

[Ondonti]

you might not need 6500 and 7500. I guess it depends whats happening to the volumetric efficiency of the motor.
Does ms do any averaging between cells?

I wouldnt go higher then 12.7 for peak power. 12.3 to 12.7 is the best hp for most n/a engines. Depends on engine though.

[Shadow24V]

if im revving to 7000 to clear the traps in 3rd i'd need those cells. and yes, MS does cell "weighting" by doing percentage weights based on how close the real time readings are to the static cells. it will weight up to 4 cells around the real time data point

that makes some sense on the AFR though, i have the part throttle higher RPM section richer cause i havent tuned it yet and it seems to pull better there than at WOT, ill go add some fuel and see what happens :)

[Reaper1]

It seems to me that you might gain more by shiufting to th than revving the piss out of the engine for no reason. If the thing doesn't make power up there, and you're WAY out of your torque band...shift! The few 100ths of a second could be made up by the car actually accelerating...I'd say just give it a shot anyways..

Oh, and those wheels you posted...OMG they are heavy! 24.5#'s each! Your stock wheels are lighter than that! I understand the budget theng, but you can get some lighter wheels for not a lot more money.

[Shadow24V]

I'll try playing with the shift points again, but i lose 2-4 tenths by shifting at 6000 vs 7000

Im not sure what you mean by the weight, im running steelies anyway for DD tires...*shrug*

[Reaper1]

Those wheels are 24.5# each! Stock Ninjas aren't even that much! My Enkie 16X7 RPF's are 14# each...just as examples..

[Shadow24V]

well, not too much new lately. I did buy a KnockSenseMS to add to my install. i have yet to install it, but I'll try to get to that this weekend. Nate (aka nmw2006) came up so we could try and diagnose his MS failure which we think was the spark output transistor. and while he was up we loaded the MS2/extra code and got "Lucy" running on it. next comes the launch control and flatshift and other goodies :) not to mention the 16x16 VE table instead of a 12x12

I have to change my trans fluid as my drain plug didn't seal right ( i don't think the thread clearances were close enough for the permatex 518 to seal) and my RTV patch job didn't take either.

also going to get my slicks this weekend so hopefully i can put own some good times next outing to the track

[Shadow24V]

ran the slicks at the track tonight, not as good as i had hoped but that could be due to a couple factors. i thought they were 24.5x8 slicks but they are actually 24.5x8.5 (they rub just the tiniest bit on my coilover sleeves) And i think the aluminum flywheel is partially hamstringing me at the line as i don't have enough power to launch well even at 6000rpms

here are the times
RT_____60'_____1/8th_____MPH_____1/4_____MPH
.138___2.078____9.522____72.80____14.916___91.61
-.052__2.216____9.650____71.42____15.048___91.32
-.312__2.082____9.526____70.61____14.898___91.68
.216___2.397____9.898___71.94_____15.250___92.20
.065___2.277____9.756___72.16_____15.120___91.78

i think i was burning out too much and the slicks were too sticky. i think next time i wont burn out and let them spin a lil off the line then hook. i tried launching at 5000, 6000, redline of 7200 and whatnot and i kept bogging the crap out of it (all with good burnouts til the slicks grabbed HARD)

also had the alignment knocked out of spec, "Lucy" pulls to the left now :(

[Ondonti]

yeah...you don't need to burnout if your traction is not being compromised.

Chris...just because you shift and make more power on the dyno doesnt mean you put more power to the ground. Gearing does a great job of multiplying power output by decimals ;)

He is probably shifting @ 87-89mph so shifting would make no sense. He would hardly get in gear before the traps

[Shadow24V]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti yeah...you don't need to burnout if your traction is not being compromised. Chris...just because you shift and make more power on the dyno doesnt mean you put more power to the ground. Gearing does a great job of multiplying power output by decimals ;) He is probably shifting @ 87-89mph so shifting would make no sense. He would hardly get in gear before the traps

yeah, next week ill try no burnout and see what happens. Also your bang on with the shifting, i'd barely get into 4th before passing the traps. im clearing the traps at 6600-6700 and 91-92mph in 3rd at the moment. if i shifted at 6000 or so, my ET dropped by a couple tenths to over .5 a sec and i was in the low 80s for MPH