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Old 02-07-2008, 10:31 AM   #46
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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Well, excccccuuuuussee ME! Pope made a comment and I was curious for further explanation. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's interested in more MPG, especially with these gas prices. Any advice should be welcome.
Sorry guys I've been using the side bar topic thing and it gets me into every lobby So I'll finish up as it could be used by people with a turbo 3.0 done right.

The computer in closed loop is on a curve as well, a vac curve where the computer is looking for set points. So (on a 2.2) if you run a slider with 14" vac the computer gives the car a richer signal. With a roller cam and 18-20 " of vac the car will be leaned out more. Other than the curve on any of the engines they have a vac sensitive fuel regulator. At 18" the thing is giving very low fuel pressure, then goes to your static level as the vac goes down.

The wideband will make the engine hunt for a 16:1 at cruize. But under a load your still getting extra fuel from fuel pressure and the the curve comes up. Even at 5 PSI your still going higher and higher with fuel in both locations. Stock of custom cals are richer at low boost at 5 PSI than the MP computers, so the wideband may be best used with one if you spend a lot of time at 5 PSI. Thats hard to do anyway, part throttle on the MP is 7-8 PSI and then your in open loop anyway. Most of the time people go back and forth with boost. Your in some vac untill you hit a hill of pass. Up around 90-100 MPH the car is back and forth around 0. In my cars I get up over 110 cruizing speed to get up into open loop. Cars vary, the 86 GLHS goes open at 110 and the 89 CSX is up to 120-125 brofore it goes open So if you cruize (in a real city) at 70-90 you should be fine, you'll go open on a hill or passing and stay in closed under some vac the rest of the time. 3" exhaust sheads heat faster, On jays Daytona and a 2.5 @ 16:1 the exhaust is coming out ice cold and the sniffer can't get a reading without a cat. Even without a cat the emission place sticks there foot over the tail pipe to get a reading. Lastly a small 2 1/4" cat is going to get really hot and may want to melt. Run a big free flowing exhaust to cool it. Emissions want small exhaust to heat a cat, 16:1 will do that faster, run bigger exhaust to not over heat it.

Can this work with a 3.0? An idea can work for it. Use a nitrous switch and cold start injector (5 th injector). Wire it for 3/4 throttle and higher. You'll get more fuel than stock, which they may end up liking anyway and still lean at cruize. The turbo guys will be very confused but otherwise logical for a wideband. You guys can experiment too, 16:1 is a working experimant now with miles on it. going as high as 18:1 you start cooling the exhaust, but hot burns every drop of fuel and uses it. Better for emissions and eviroment without a cat.
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Old 02-07-2008, 12:56 PM   #47
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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Lookin, Ed, I and a few others had a nice long talk about this in another thread so this isnt new info...........Both of them were looking into building boxes that trick the ECU.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:53 PM   #48
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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Since 2.2's were brought up I got about 30mpg on the highway with a car loaded with 4 people and supplies for a weekend doing about 80MPH for a 8 hour trip. This was on a 2.2 turbo 2 with coil pack ignition, Megasquirt, no cat and the cruise fuel map leaned out as far as I could go. The car would be in vacuum on the flat road but would would boost up to 10PSI on steep hills with cruise on. This was with an A520 3.50 fd. I'd rather run MS then play with O2 signals. Keep in mind running lean with a CAT will destroy the cat and you will have high NOx emissions.
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Old 02-07-2008, 03:58 PM   #49
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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Lets not have a "cat" fight now.

Sorry ... no way could I pass that up!
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Old 02-07-2008, 05:10 PM   #50
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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Well, my Shadow is a 2.2/A523 w/3.77 FD ratio, but I have made an observation that might help the guys/gals "tuning" their cars, turbo, NA, or V6.

In the winter(from October1 to February28 here in Montana), they dope the gas as high as 20% Ethanol "to reduce winter emissions from idling and startup". Most people here have those remote starters, and will let the cars/trucks idle as long as 10 minutes before actually driving them. So, they dope the gas. In my car, I crank it, let it idle for 2-3minutes(or until it goes closed-loop, signified by a slight drop in RPM on my 2.2 from 1400(open loop idle) to around 900(closed loop idle). I have a custom-installed traveler in my car, and it's accurate according to calculations. In the summer, I can lock the cruise in at 65MPH and hit an instantaneous reading of 45-50ish on flat ground, ambient temp of 80degF, CAI removed(I lock the cruise, and run the car for at least 10 miles on flat road, watching the traveler). My average for city/hwy combined stays around the 23-24MPG mark, and I have a heavy foot sometimes. In the winter, the average will drop to around 19 mark, and the same 65MPH test will render only about 35-40MPG instantaneous, ambient temp of 30degF. I can dump a bottle of 106 octane booster on top of the 89octane pump gas in winter, and my numbers will return to normal summer driving. This is why I don't try to test mods in the winter, as the ethanol content makes my mileage suck.

And just for the record, here's the "hookup":

'89 Dodge Shadow 4-dr 2.2L with '93 A523/3.77FD with Quaife LSD
Omni airbox modified for CAI
Holley TBI unit from '89 LeBaron Coupe with Holley injector for 2.2L
custom 1/2" aluminum TBI spacer on top of factory phenolic spacer
2" exhaust with hi-flow cat and dual-tip turbo muffler from a Shadow ES
Hatch/fin from a '88 Shadow ES
Factory 14" steelies with 185/70sR14 Merit radial from Les Schwab(s-rated)
rear raised 1.25" from factory spec with '93 NYer rear coils
front coils from '88 ES
Monroe Sens-a-trac shocks/struts
AC removed
full-size spare(donut bracket removed)
presently running unequal-length axles. Have I-shaft for equal length, just too cold to drop it in yet.

I plan on dyno-ing the car this summer, as I've just added the extra spacer under the TBI. The Holley unit has a different throat design to the standard Bosche(top half will interchange), and seems to atomize the fuel better.



I know it took twice as much M85 to get the same power as pump gas, but seeing the numbers, it's the same story with ethanol.
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:20 PM   #51
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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I know it took twice as much M85 to get the same power as pump gas, but seeing the numbers, it's the same story with ethanol.
E85 and M85 are not even close to each other in fuel usage lol.
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:40 PM   #52
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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a guy i talked to that has a 3.0 Daytona said he thinks its better on gas than a 2.2l...but i think hes definately wrong...but who knows maybe i could be wrong
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:04 PM   #53
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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My 92 Daytona gets about 23-26 mpg in city and 33-36 mpg on highway. On the highway, I set the cruise at 70 and run and run from full to near empty apx 450 miles. Once, I needed to stretch my tank and did 60-65 mph and made 490 miles. I've never owned a 4 cyl car that could get this kind of mileage; they'd get 30-32 at highway at 65 and drop drastically from there.
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Old 02-07-2008, 08:39 PM   #54
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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I make the same 8 hour trip a number of times a year. With gas costing 1.00 per litre (3.80/US Gal) I will burn $70 in a Honda civic drivin it hard (average 80-100 MPH). My spirt will cost me $80 driven at a constant 80mph. My sundance cost around $75 doing a constant 80mph. My Pontiac Transport Van loaded with people would make the trip on $90 and my Dad's '98 1500 Chev 5.0 2WD does the trip on $120 in gas driving at 70mph The best I've done is $35 driving a '90 Izuzu Impulse 5spd 1.6DOHC non turbo ( gas at $0.60 per litre/ 2.28 per gal) The trip is about 600 miles with many hills.
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:16 AM   #55
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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My 92 Daytona gets about 23-26 mpg in city and 33-36 mpg on highway. On the highway, I set the cruise at 70 and run and run from full to near empty apx 450 miles. Once, I needed to stretch my tank and did 60-65 mph and made 490 miles. I've never owned a 4 cyl car that could get this kind of mileage; they'd get 30-32 at highway at 65 and drop drastically from there.
Holy crap i wish i was getting that. Apparently i need to do something to my car Oh and just checked some records....actually put a brand new thermostat in it not long ago. Just a carquest one....whatever that happens to be. I think its time for a complete tuneup...at least a coil wires and plugs. The plugs might still be good but it cant hurt. I think i might put a new dizzy in it too since im going to be driving it all the time to school.....the good news is the iroc wont be getting more miles put on it its currently gutted and i need to put dynamat in the rear floor. Leaving the backseat out this time. Also i need to get my exhaust on it....im just tired of welding. I weld everyday now...getting ready to start tig welding...anyone need me to weld anything by chance lol.
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Old 02-08-2008, 05:55 PM   #56
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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but what temp is the thermostat? 180 or 195?
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Old 02-08-2008, 06:21 PM   #57
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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Good question actually...i dunno. I know its just a stock replacement.
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Old 02-09-2008, 08:35 AM   #58
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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Good question actually...i dunno. I know its just a stock replacement.
stock replacements are 195*
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Old 02-09-2008, 05:33 PM   #59
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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Well there you go. I did the math on my old "gas" mileage and i was getting 26-27 before....easy. So ive lost about 3-4 miles per gallon or so. This last tank was even worse than the one before. I really need to start eliminating variables.

Last edited by irocelectric93 : 02-09-2008 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 02-09-2008, 06:32 PM   #60
Re: What kind of gas mileage you guy getting?  
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My '93 Shadow ES 3.0 has always gotten 22-25 mpg no matter what kind of driving I was doing. This is with both the old 3.0 / 604 combination and the new 3.0 with the cams and 543 - 3.50 geared 5 speed.

Typical average is 23 mpg.

I've watched my odometer calibration on the highways, and a local transmission shop helped me get the TCM tire size factor tuned to make my odometer accurate within 2%. I have always used 195-60-15 tires on this car.

I had 2 methods of checking fuel consumption at the pump for mileage tests.

1. Fill tank until ABSOLUTELY FULL, this requires filling until the pump kicks off, shake car to get the air out of the tank, fill pump again until it kicks off, shake, fill, shake, fill, etc. until finally with the pump barely on I get the whole fuel filler tube filled also. I wonder what I looked like, shaking the car at the pump all those years!

2. I switched to the less weird looking way of letting the tank fill until the pump kicks off, then turn pump back on until it kicks off 2 more times, no shaking involved.
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