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Development Lounge The place to discuss any and all ideas, the "Inception" Forum

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Old 12-23-2012, 05:23 PM   #361
Re: Free CNC machining for all!!  
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My goal is to get rid of the stock pump or anything like it all together. I want to mill the intermediate shaft that drives the stock pump down to nothing so it is just capable of holding the timing belt gear which is in turn getting replaced with a Fidanza adjustable gear for weight savings as it is.

Once you convert the system to dry sump you lose all the splash oiling of the gear that drives the stock pump. Warren is even having issues with just a crank scraper. It is not designed to turn crazy rpms. The 7200 my 2.5 was set at for a rev limiter was probably more than it could handle. My Masi is going to be hitting 8grand+ if I can get it set up the way I want it.

The pan should just be to gather the oil that falls down, should have a scraper system and collect the oil. Think of how much of a PITA it's going to be to have to hook up to a pump on the bottom of the block and then have lines running to the pan to get it to the external tank. A real big one.

I know you're trying to do this on the cheap. But I think it's better to be able to have it be easy to install and work with as well. It also needs to have a benefit over stock or it's pointless.

I think something similar to that AMS setup is the way to do it. Just hang it under the intermediate shaft for the axles. Have an adapter that bolts to the front of the crank for a belt gear and go.

On your end just make the bracket, and crank adapter and let people find deals on pumps on Ebay. A reservoir tank might be possible to do as part of the kit as well.

Just my opinions. But I think we need reliability as well as performance above cost. You don't want to have people buy your stuff cause it's cheap then for some reason or another have the engine explode because you're experimenting with a design that isn't proven.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:02 PM   #362
Re: Free CNC machining for all!!  
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Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
My goal is to get rid of the stock pump or anything like it all together. I want to mill the intermediate shaft that drives the stock pump down to nothing so it is just capable of holding the timing belt gear which is in turn getting replaced with a Fidanza adjustable gear for weight savings as it is.

Once you convert the system to dry sump you lose all the splash oiling of the gear that drives the stock pump. Warren is even having issues with just a crank scraper. It is not designed to turn crazy rpms. The 7200 my 2.5 was set at for a rev limiter was probably more than it could handle. My Masi is going to be hitting 8grand+ if I can get it set up the way I want it.

The pan should just be to gather the oil that falls down, should have a scraper system and collect the oil. Think of how much of a PITA it's going to be to have to hook up to a pump on the bottom of the block and then have lines running to the pan to get it to the external tank. A real big one.

I know you're trying to do this on the cheap. But I think it's better to be able to have it be easy to install and work with as well. It also needs to have a benefit over stock or it's pointless.

I think something similar to that AMS setup is the way to do it. Just hang it under the intermediate shaft for the axles. Have an adapter that bolts to the front of the crank for a belt gear and go.

On your end just make the bracket, and crank adapter and let people find deals on pumps on Ebay. A reservoir tank might be possible to do as part of the kit as well.

Just my opinions. But I think we need reliability as well as performance above cost. You don't want to have people buy your stuff cause it's cheap then for some reason or another have the engine explode because you're experimenting with a design that isn't proven.
Sounds good, if you buy the pump and pullies and send them to me, I'll whip up a bracket and pulley adapter for the crank. Or you could buy them and mock up a bracket out of plywood or something, and send me the info, and I'll make something for you to try out. I could make the crank pulley adapter blind as long as know how far out it needs to be. I think I could actually machine a round tooth pulley from scratch on the sherline, especially while I have my 4th axis, but if there is an off the shelf one that would be preferred.

Once we establish the pump can be mounted and driven, then we can move on to the oil pan and reservoir tank. Although I would really like to start on those now, but that means downtime for my car, so its going to be awhile before I can do those. But the bracket I can do with just unbolting stuff.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:16 PM   #363
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The belt driven pumps are far more reliable as you can inspect the belt for wear. There's a reason they don't use electric pumps in a racing application.
Just the fuel pumps, and if those die under boost thats at least as bad as your oil pump dying
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Old 12-25-2012, 10:33 AM   #364
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Now here's something I found interesting.



Drive EVERYTHING off the belt. Yes I know there's no alternator in the pic, but just wanted to show it to show that maybe everything can be driven off the same belt.
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:52 AM   #365
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good pic

if some kind of inlet houseing was made to go where the water pump attaches to the block , the lower rad hose could be routed to it with an inline water pump leaveing the orig water pump location open
some brackets to mount the oil pump are of course needed but so would be somthing to support the bottom alternator mount / adjust bracket
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:01 PM   #366
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Now here's something I found interesting.



Drive EVERYTHING off the belt. Yes I know there's no alternator in the pic, but just wanted to show it to show that maybe everything can be driven off the same belt.
Looks like a timing NIGHTMARE!
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:45 PM   #367
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how is it any harder to time than stock?
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Old 12-25-2012, 11:48 PM   #368
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good pic

if some kind of inlet houseing was made to go where the water pump attaches to the block , the lower rad hose could be routed to it with an inline water pump leaveing the orig water pump location open
some brackets to mount the oil pump are of course needed but so would be somthing to support the bottom alternator mount / adjust bracket
Well, maybe that's something Accenell should devote his time too. Getting rid of the stock waterpump. Making a housing that will hold a T-stat on the block inlet and reverse cooling these engines. Probably see more hp from reverse cooling things than from a dry sump. R

So Reverse cooling stage 1 and dry sump would be stage 2 :)
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:14 AM   #369
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how is it any harder to time than stock?
All the extra stuff in the way, and it has the dohc which I'm assuming is even harder to get right. I had enough issues getting the timing right with just 3 pulleys and a tensioner and nothing in the way.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:28 AM   #370
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Well, maybe that's something Accenell should devote his time too. Getting rid of the stock waterpump. Making a housing that will hold a T-stat on the block inlet and reverse cooling these engines. Probably see more hp from reverse cooling things than from a dry sump. R

So Reverse cooling stage 1 and dry sump would be stage 2 :)
I think we can do this without moving the water pump, or at the very least its worth an attempt.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:42 AM   #371
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All the extra stuff in the way, and it has the dohc which I'm assuming is even harder to get right. I had enough issues getting the timing right with just 3 pulleys and a tensioner and nothing in the way.
Well you don't have to time the oil and water pump so that comes off just like the belt on an 8v.

The timing belt for the gears is actually easier as you pin the cam gears at 0 then put your belt on and line up the intermediate shaft and crank. No guessing if the cams are at 0 like an 8v.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:42 AM   #372
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The timing belt for the gears is actually easier as you pin the cam gears at 0 then put your belt on and line up the intermediate shaft and crank. No guessing if the cams are at 0 like an 8v.
good to know!

What is the best way of lining up the intermediate shaft and crank? I use a straight-edge from the middle of the pulley bolts and line up the marks with that, but it ends up being off a tooth half the time.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:19 PM   #373
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good to know!

What is the best way of lining up the intermediate shaft and crank? I use a straight-edge from the middle of the pulley bolts and line up the marks with that, but it ends up being off a tooth half the time.
I think last time I did this I used the distributor to fine-tune the the intermediate shaft location. If the rotor points to #1 when everything is at TDC, and the distributor flat edge is close to parellel with the engine left-right..then you are good to go. From that point it doesnt really matter if the int shaft is perfect or not, because you have maximized the amount of rotation you can adjust the distributor.

Right?
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:45 PM   #374
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I use a straight edge or string or vacuum line pulled across the centerline of the pulleys as well.
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:31 PM   #375
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heres something perfect that alot of us could use is a adapter plate to put behind the thermostat housing with threaded holes for gauge senders or turbo lines

or oil filter adapters made for our cars so we can put a front mount oil cooler on


Transdapt used to make a remote oil filter/cooler. The dealer sold me one when I bought my glhs new, through MoPar Performance. Had to use a shorter filter and notch the fan shroud.
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