Overheating Version 2.0

[DustinSlaven89]

Ok, as some of you may know, my 93 shadow has been overheating for quite some time, it does fine in city driving for about 20 minutes, then things get icky.

Several people had ideas but none are plausible

Thermostat-Impossible. Replaced, worked great for a couple days, now a new problem, or there is something wrong with the thermostat, I doubt there is any leaks cause I did it with my grandpa, who has been working on cars his entire life.

50/50 water and coolant improperly mixed - Impossible. I bought a jug of prestone 50/50 that is prediluted and they cautioned to not add water.

Leak - Impossible. Reservoir is completely full after putting all the coolant in the radiator, so I have no loss of coolant.

Does anyone know roughly how hot the engine is if the needle is between the "safe zone" and topping out at H? I bought a 180 degree thermostat, replaced the gasket, and put gasket sealer on BOTH sides.

So today I was driving around, for about 15 minutes, I went home changed my clothes for work, went back out to my car and it wouldnt turn over, I had electricity, but it wouldnt start. So I took my moms car to work, got home and it started up right away.

Since it was hot, what would have caused it to get SO HOT, that it wouldnt even start for me?

When I put new coolant in and started it up to get the coolant circulating, There was smoke coming off a hose directly under the ignition coil going to the block. Why would that hose be smoking?

1. because it was hot and it was burning coolant that dripped on it?

2. something else?

I am gonna try and give as much info as possible

I think there might be a leak in my radiator, cause one day I was under the car, and noticed the radiator had a wetspot.

There was coolant on the lip of the hole that bolts the alternator in, dont know why

The copper coils inside my alternator usually have a weathered look to them, but today they were clean, it had rained, but no water got in the engine bay.

Oh I know why, cause I put too much coolant in, and it drained out the over flow spill.

Thats all I know of so far.

[NAJ]

If you want to Verify Engine Temp and do not have access to a Scan Tool,with a Digital Voltmeter Backprobe the 2 Terminals at the Coolant Temp Sensor and check your Voltage Readings in the Voltage Tables in the "Sticky" in the "Engine Management Section".
Cooling System Diagnostics Straight From Chrysler.
PRELIMINARY CHECKS
ENGINE COOLING SYSTEM OVERHEATING
Establish what driving conditions caused the complaint. Abnormal loads on the cooling system such as the following may be the cause:

PROLONGED IDLE, VERY HIGH AMBIENT TEMPERATURE, SLIGHT TAIL WIND AT IDLE, SLOW TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC JAMS, HIGH SPEED OR STEEP GRADES
Driving techniques that avoid overheating are:

Idle with A/C off when temperature gauge is at end of normal range.
Increasing engine speed for more air flow is recommended.
TRAILER TOWING:
Consult Trailer Towing section of owners manual. Do not exceed limits.

AIR CONDITIONING; ADD-ON OR AFTER MARKET:
A maximum cooling package should have been ordered with vehicle if add-on or after market A/C is installed. If not, maximum cooling system components should be installed for model involved per manufacturer's specifications.

RECENT SERVICE OR ACCIDENT REPAIR:
Determine if any recent service has been performed on vehicle that may effect cooling system. This may be:

Engine adjustments (incorrect timing)
Slipping engine accessory drive belt(s)
Brakes (possibly dragging)
Changed parts. Incorrect water pump or pump rotating in wrong direction due to belt not correctly routed
Reconditioned radiator or cooling system refilling (possibly under filled or air trapped in system)
NOTE: If investigation reveals none of the previous items as a cause for an engine overheating complaint, refer to following Cooling System Diagnosis charts.

These charts are to be used as a quick-reference only. Refer to the group text for information

TESTING COOLING SYSTEM FOR LEAKS

PRESSURE TESTER METHOD
The engine should be at the normal operating temperature. Recheck the system cold if the cause of coolant loss is not located during warm engine examination.

WARNING: HOT, PRESSURIZED COOLANT CAN CAUSE INJURY BY SCALDING.

Carefully remove the radiator pressure cap from the filler neck and check the coolant level. Push down on the cap to disengage it from the stop tabs. Wipe the inner part of the filler neck and examine the lower inside sealing seat for nicks, cracks, paint, dirt and solder residue. Inspect the reserve/overflow tank tube for internal obstructions. Insert a wire through the tube to be sure it is not obstructed.

Inspect the cams on the outside part of the filler neck. If the cams are bent, seating of pressure cap valve and tester seal will be affected. Replace cap if cams are bent.

Attach pressure tester 7700 (or an equivalent) to the radiator filler neck Pressurizing System - Typical

Operate the tester pump to apply 124 kPa (18 psi) pressure to the system. If the hoses enlarge excessively or bulge while testing, replace as necessary. Observe the gauge pointer and determine the condition of the cooling system according to the following criteria:

Holds Steady: If the pointer remains steady for two minutes, there are no serious coolant leaks in the system. However, there could be an internal leak that does not appear with normal system test pressure. Inspect for interior leakage or do the Internal Leakage Test. Do this if it is certain that coolant is being lost and no leaks can be detected.
Drops Slowly: Shows a small leak or seepage is occurring. Examine all connections for seepage or slight leakage with a flashlight. Inspect the radiator, hoses, gasket edges and heater. Seal any small leak holes with a Sealer Lubricant or equivalent. Repair leak holes and reinspect the system with pressure applied.
Drops Quickly: Shows that a serious leakage is occurring. Examine the system for serious external leakage. If no leaks are visible, inspect for internal leakage. Large radiator leak holes should be repaired by a reputable radiator repair shop.
INTERNAL LEAKAGE INSPECTION
Remove the engine oil pan drain plug and drain a small amount of engine oil. Coolant, being heavier than engine oil, will drain first. Another way of testing is to operate the engine and check for water globules on the engine oil dipstick. Also inspect the automatic transmission oil dipstick for water globules. Inspect the automatic transmission fluid cooler for leakage. Operate the engine without the pressure cap on the radiator until thermostat opens.

Attach a pressure tester to the filler neck. If pressure builds up quickly, a leak exists as a result of a faulty cylinder head gasket or crack in the engine. Repair as necessary.

WARNING: DO NOT ALLOW PRESSURE TO EXCEED 124 KPA (18 PSI) TURN THE ENGINE OFF. TO RELEASE THE PRESSURE, ROCK THE TESTER FROM SIDE TO SIDE. WHEN REMOVING THE TESTER, DO NOT TURN THE TESTER MORE THAN 1/2 TURN IF THE SYSTEM IS UNDER PRESSURE.

If there is no immediate pressure increase, pump the pressure tester until the indicated pressure is within the system range. Vibration of the gauge pointer indicates compression or combustion leakage into the cooling system.

WARNING: DO NOT DISCONNECT THE SPARK PLUG WIRES WHILE THE ENGINE IS OPERATING.

CAUTION: Do not operate the engine with a spark plug shorted for more than a minute. The catalytic converter may be damaged.

Isolate the compression leak by shorting each spark plug to the cylinder block. The gauge pointer should stop or decrease vibration when spark plug for leaking cylinder is shorted. This happens because of the absence of combustion pressure.

COMBUSTION LEAKAGE TEST (WITHOUT PRESSURE TESTER)
DO NOT WASTE reusable coolant. If the solution is clean, drain the coolant into a clean container for reuse.

WARNING: DO NOT REMOVE THE CYLINDER BLOCK DRAIN PLUGS OR LOOSEN THE RADIATOR DRAINCOCK WITH THE SYSTEM HOT AND UNDER PRESSURE. SERIOUS BURNS FROM COOLANT CAN OCCUR.

Drain sufficient coolant to allow for thermostat removal. Refer to Thermostat Replacement. Disconnect the water pump drive belt.

Disconnect the upper radiator hose from the thermostat housing. Remove the housing and thermostat. Install the thermostat housing.

Add coolant to the radiator to bring the level to within 6.3 mm (1/4 in) of the top of the thermostat housing.

CAUTION: Avoid overheating. Do not operate the engine for an excessive period of time. Open the draincock immediately after the test to eliminate boil over of coolant.

Start the engine and accelerate rapidly three times (to approximately 3000 rpm) while observing the coolant. If internal engine combustion gases are leaking into the cooling system, bubbles will appear in the coolant. If bubbles do not appear, there is no internal combustion gas leakage.

COOLING SYSTEM DIAGNOSTICS,SYMPTOMS AND CAUSES.
TEMPERATURE GAUGE READS HIGH,COOLANT MAY OR MAY NOT BE LOST OR LEAKING.
1) Is temperature gauge reading correctly?
2)Is coolant low in coolant overflow tank and radiator?
3)Pressure cap not installed tightly.
4)Poor seals at radiator cap
5)Coolant level low in radiator but not in coolant reserve/overflow tank
6)Freeze Point of Anti Freeze not correct.
7)Coolant not flowing thru system.
8)Radiator or A/C condenser fins are dirty or clogged.
9)Radiator core is corroded or plugged.
10)Fuel or Ignition system problems.
11)Restriction of airflow thru front of vehicle or missing air deflector.
12)Electric cooling fan not operating properly.
13)Cylinder head gasket leaking
14)Heater core leaking
15)Dragging brakes
That is Complete Diagnostics for Cooling System Overheating,Follow Completly and from the Beginning and you will locate your problem.

[DustinSlaven89]

PRELIMINARY CHECKS
ENGINE COOLING SYSTEM OVERHEATING
:
PROLONGED IDLE- No
VERY HIGH AMBIENT TEMPERATURE- Im assuming weather, no its cold.
SLIGHT TAIL WIND AT IDLE- doubt it.
SLOW TRAFFIC-varies, dont use main roads often
TRAFFIC JAMS-nope
HIGH SPEED OR STEEP GRADES- is 35mpg too fast?

Engine adjustments (incorrect timing)- Maybe

Slipping engine accessory drive belt(s)- Nope

Brakes (possibly dragging)- brakes have been slightly dragging since I bought the car

Reconditioned radiator or cooling system refilling (possibly under filled or air trapped in system)- possible




TESTING COOLING SYSTEM FOR LEAKS- no leaks


Start the engine and accelerate rapidly three times (to approximately 3000 rpm) while observing the coolant. If internal engine combustion gases are leaking into the cooling system, bubbles will appear in the coolant. If bubbles do not appear, there is no internal combustion gas leakage. - I will try that tonight

COOLING SYSTEM DIAGNOSTICS,SYMPTOMS AND CAUSES.
TEMPERATURE GAUGE READS HIGH,COOLANT MAY OR MAY NOT BE LOST OR LEAKING.
1) Is temperature gauge reading correctly? yes
2)Is coolant low in coolant overflow tank and radiator? not in overflow, too hot to check radiator yesterday
3)Pressure cap not installed tightly? very tight
4)Poor seals at radiator cap? no
5)Coolant level low in radiator but not in coolant reserve/overflow tank? might be
6)Freeze Point of Anti Freeze not correct? its correct
7)Coolant not flowing thru system. VERY possible
8)Radiator or A/C condenser fins are dirty or clogged. fins are clean
9)Radiator core is corroded or plugged? I dont know where it is
10)Fuel or Ignition system problems. no fuel problems, full tune up
11)Restriction of airflow thru front of vehicle or missing air deflector? no
12)Electric cooling fan not operating properly? works fine
13)Cylinder head gasket leaking? doubt it
14)Heater core leaking- no
15)Dragging brakes- yes
[/quote]

I answered all the issues.

All I can come up with, is something is clogged and not letting coolant into the engine. Isnt the only point of entry for coolant the thermostat.

What would be a sign if the water pump is out?

[NAJ]

Actually the direction of flow is from lower hose to water pump,thru the block and head,thru thermostat back to radiator.
With a turbo the coolant splits at the water pump and runs to turbo,from turbo back to cylinder head behind thermostat.
As Per Chrysler ;
ENGINE COLD,THERMOSTAT CLOSED
No flow thru radiator,bypassed flow only
ENGINE WARM,THERMOSTAT OPEN
Engine bypass flow plus flow thru radiator.
HEATED INTAKE MANIFOLD(Except with turbo)
Always has flow.
HEATER
Heater coolant flow circuit is always open except when in Max A/C or Off modes,then coolant flows thru heater bypass.
The last 2 posts is ALL of the information available to Chrysler Techs for Running Hot/Overheating.I have no more info to give. Now it will take an organized diagnostic sequense on your part.
You will not know if it has the incorrect pump or if there is a problem with the impellor without removing it and comparing it to the known correct pump.
Not to be a smarta.. but there is no other way unless you can take an X-Ray.
I have been doing this for 30 years and sometimes you have no choice but to get in there and take things apart for visual inspection.

[DustinSlaven89]

Ive got a big kahuna problem.

Started it up, took the rad. cap off, and coolant boiled to the top, over flowed a little bit, then continued to bubble, headgasket???

White smoke came out the exhaust when I accelerated, and a clear odorless liquid dripped out.

A little bit of coolant leaked out the thermostat gasket, dont know why.

Drove car for 5 minutes, and it overheated, got home, and there was a burnt rubber/ funky smell coming from the valve cover.

Why oh why.

I hooked up a vacuum gauge, and the needle stayed still at 15psi.

[NAJ]

Read the section "Internal Leakage Inspection" that I posted earlier.
If I am not mistaken,myself and others stated that your problem sounded like a headgasket in your previous thread.
If the gasket is damaged at the water jacket there will not be a loss of engine vacuum or compression.
Again, the only way to verify is to remove the head.
When mine went,white smoke,overheating,cylinder misfire,tow truck,I did not even hesitate,had the head off that night.

[91shelby]

i would also have to say sounds like a headgasket, specially all those smells together. How about your fan? does it kick on? my car had a fan issue for a while, but my headgasket was fine. If it doesnt check your relay

[DustinSlaven89]

Yeah there was a constant stream of bubbles in the coolant.

I wish I had more time to deal with this issue

but it doesnt even seem like there is any coolant going in the engine. it just wants to hang out in the radiator and reservoir.

[Powell]

another way i personally found to be sure of a bad head gasket or possiblle warped head is when it's overheated, just unplug the overfill hose to the coolant and steam will shooting out. If thats the case well then bad gasket. I guess that could differ from vehicle but was a good diagnostic on my 2.5

[19 sundance rs]

Try checking the heater core by back flushing it, If its cloged up or even restrictive to coolant flow the thermostat wont open untill the coolant is
about turning to steam because its not flowing past the thermostat on its way to the heater core. If the core is totally cloged up I dont think any coolant is moving through the motor untill the thermostat opens up. Coolant needs to be moving all the time even with the thermostat closed to keep hot spots from happening in the motor. My sundance was pegging the temp gauge then it would nose dive once the thermostat would open. then do it all over. I bypassed the heater and the problem went away. Took only 12 hrs to replace the core, but after doing it once I think that I could knock it off in 4 hrs or so now

[IROCNOROLL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19 sundance rs Try checking the heater core by back flushing it, If its cloged up or even restrictive to coolant flow the thermostat wont open untill the coolant is about turning to steam because its not flowing past the thermostat on its way to the heater core. If the core is totally cloged up I dont think any coolant is moving through the motor untill the thermostat opens up. Coolant needs to be moving all the time even with the thermostat closed to keep hot spots from happening in the motor. My sundance was pegging the temp gauge then it would nose dive once the thermostat would open. then do it all over. I bypassed the heater and the problem went away. Took only 12 hrs to replace the core, but after doing it once I think that I could knock it off in 4 hrs or so now

With the engine warmed up, Turn on the heater fan, set to defrost, and feel the output from the vents. If the air is really hot the heater core can't be plugged too badly.

[DustinSlaven89]

ok well, I dont think much or any coolant for that matter, is getting to the engine.

It gets hot and it gets hot fast, and it stays hot, got home, took the RESERVOIR cap off and it was full of bubbling smoking coolant. will probably pick up a thing of coolant before going to work, and take my moms car, then put it in the radiator tonight after I get off.

I dont know whats going on, but im losing coolant bad, there wasnt any in the radiator or reservoir a couple days ago after filling it about 2 weeks before.

My grandpa, who has been around cars all his life, doesnt think its a gasket, he seems to think its a hose somewhere. but he doesnt know where, and it pisses me off.

The air coming from the vents is hot also.

[NAJ]

To stop guessing you should have the system pressure tested.If you are loosing that much coolant you would see evidence on the ground or in the engine compatment where it is leaking.
This sounds like a classic head gasket problem.
There are diagnostics listed in this thread for checking for combustion gases entering the cooling system.

[Ryan Burton]

my car has been plagued with cooling problems. Everything is new and the radiator was supposedly recored yet the car still ran hot on warm days. Boiling over in the overflow...gurgle gurgle gurgle. Pulled radiator again gonna have it tested. I am at a loss to have someone explain what is going on. New head, new waterpump, everything ported and polished, changed thermostat several times, wired fan to run constant.....still did it and eventually parked it over the summer. Beginning to think heater core clog?

[NAJ]

Read the Chrysler diagnostics on running hot/ overheating.