Wake me up from this nightmare!!

[owensmat]

HI there,
Hoping for help/suggestions/advice/insight and maybe a pinch to wake me up from this nightmare? I have a 1985 Omni GLH-T with a T-2 swap (mopar stage two comp, large intercooler, walbro h/v pump, etc.). Rebuilt the turbo after seals went bad (had it bored larger) and after getting the car back together, the car was running poorly and eventually developed a knock in cylinder one. Replaced the bearings (cylinder 1 bearing cap was on backwards from previous owner). Knock went away, but shortly after lost compression in cylinders 1 (60psi) and 2 (70psi) and then blow by all over the place. Pulled the engine and bought a new engine. Same block (88 Shelby 2.2), different head (bathtub). New engine was completely remachined and bored .030 over, new pistons (hyperutectic...I know, they suck), new everything (bearings, rings, plugs, etc). New head is ported/polished with valve seats touching. Everything appeared very nicely put together and detailed well. New engine was put in, started and seemed to run well, needed the idle bumped up a little to keep it running. Let it run for about 20 minutes and it sounded great with no smoke. Next day, tried to start it and it was a little difficult to start, but started and ran the same. Backed it out for the first drive, driving it conservatively. Made it about one block and it started to die out. When letting off the gas it would go back to running, but died when I hit the gas. At a roll, jumped the clutch and it started up again and then died and wouldn't start back up. After that, wouldn't start again. It would only turn over. I was getting fuel (58psi) and good spark. First checked the timing and it was off 180 degrees, which probably occurred at the time of jumping the clutch by jumping the belt, as it was set right at the time of putting the engine back together. Corrected the timing across the board and same thing, no start, only turned over. Eventually checked the compression, which unfortunately was significantly low. #1 @ 30psi, #2 @ 55psi, #3 @ 60psi and #4 @ 30psi. Next, poored a little oil in each cylinder and rechecked. Numbers doubled to #1 @ 60psi, #2 @ 110psi, #3 @ 120psi and #4 @ 60psi. Here's my questions:

What could be wrong besides rings?
If it is the rings, what could make them bad so quickly (20 minutes of idling)?
Besides a leak down test, any other suggestions for what to look for to figure out what's going on or could be wrong?

Any help would GREATLY be appreciated!! Thanks!!

[owensmat]

Hey there, 47 views and nobody has anything to offer?? I know there are some very bright and mechanically talented folks on this site. Am I just asking the wrong questions? Help me out here fellas. I wanna love and drive this Dodge, but my impulse to smash it up is gaining favor.

[Screamin4banger]

Wow, dude, Thats messed up...

anyway,
timing jump 180* out? thats a feat.. I would look in to that more considering you said you "fixed" it.

Got the right timing belt?

new rings are gonna have lower compression, bad valve timing is gonna KILL your compression.

some of the things you said need some clarification, at least for me:

Bought a new engine? you mean had one built? where's you old engine? did that get rebuilt? who built the motor? you? a machine shop? a combination? .030 over? was the block that bad? You had your turbo bored out? like how?

I guess really, how long did you have this thing running well before you started on your "nightmare"?
A year?
A week?
Did you buy it effed up?

[puppet]

I think a leak down test is in order here. Not to confirm the low compression but to diagnose the engine as a whole.

[bris09]

I also agree that it is **** near impossible for the timing to jump 180 degrees. I would double check the timing first. Once you are sure it is right then do a leak down test. Was the positioning of the rings verified before the pistons were put in the block?

[BAKES]

start with the timing belt see why it was out all check your dist drive/ oil pump drive to make sure the drive teeth are ok to jump 180 deg is a lot if checking the cam timing in the car use a mirror and look at the refection it is so easy to get the cam off a tooth with out
as for compresson the rings need to seat in and if fuel washes them down you can get the readings like the one your seeing

[impuresoul2k3]

especially since the engine isn't broken in, it'll probably read low

[NAJ]

After reading your entire thread it still sounds like cam timing.
If the plugs are fuel fouled clean/replace or the vehicle will never start and be sure the oil is not fuel diluted or it will create a rich mixture and wash down the cylinder walls.
Once the basics are checked and the vehicle starts you have determine why the vehicle stalled in the first place.
Did any fault codes set?
When the vehicle ran what was engine vacuum? What was vacuum to the baro solenoid and from the baro to map?
Are tps, air charge temp and coolant temp sensor calibrations correct?

[owensmat]

Hey fellas, thanks for the replies. I'll add some more info. to answer your questions. First, I don't really know what the hell I'm doin, so I have a mechanic thats pretty well versed in these 2.2 turbos that has been helping. He has resolved that the rings must be bad, but it would seem unlikely, given that the newly rebuilt engine only ran idling for 20 minutes total before it died. Unless of course the engine was put together poorly. Even if the cylinders washed, it seems unlikely that the rings would have worn that quickly?? Anyways, the engine was professionally machined, the internals were balanced and it was put back together by a knowledgeable backyard mechanic, which may be the problem?? As for the turbo question, when I had it rebuilt, they bored it out and put a larger impellar, which is supposed to provide 20% more air flow. Prior to its first start up, the timing was set right across the board. We lined up at the pulleys, lined up at the cam and set the ignition timing at 12 degrees advanced. We later retarded the timing a bit when we were trying various ways to get it running. As for it jumping 180 degrees, they mechanic was pretty shocked about it too. It seemed such a freakishly low probability of that occuring. We took off the pulley and lined everything up again and set the timing proper again across the board. Still wouldn't start?? We tried switching plugs, switching the fuel pressure regulator, switching the cap and rotor and nothing. The plugs were mildly fuel rich after the first start, but from there forward they were clean and didn't show any sign of fuel issues and as I mentioned, the fuel pressure was good at 58psi, which the book said was proper for the stock t2 with stock t2 injectors. I still plan on doing a leak down. I'm told that if I do a leak down and air blows out the dipstick, then its rings?? Another question, when we poured oil in the cylinders and checked the compression, it doubled. Still low in cylinders 2 and 3, but it doubled. Can the doubling be explained by anything other than bad rings? In other words, if the rings were good, what else would make the compression double? I'll recheck the timing for the third time and see what it shows. Also, I'll ask the mechanic about the other suggestions that were made. Thanks for all of your help guys. If I don't get this thing running, I think I'm gonna have to sell it off. I can't go through another round of this squashing of hope. Too bad if that happens though, cuz this is a very nice GLH. Body is very nice, interior is excellent and I powder coated many of the engine parts. It would kill me to do so, but a man can only take so much. Anyways, thanks again!

[bris09]

Hang in there. Even if you have to re-ring it, that can be done without pulling the engine.

A couple of questions.
Have you verified you are actually getting spark and fuel to the cylinders? Is everything still plugged in and are all the grounds secure?

[william]

Something is fishy with this timing jumping 180* (a very significant number compared to a more random-ish ~20 or ~40 degrees you might expect to see) and the compression numbers (also significant in order and value). How did you determine your timing had jumped? Was your fuel pressure measured during cranking?

A sloppy alignment on the oil pump drive gear can cause the teeth to wear or break which can cause the distributor to jump out of time, and can cause some of the symptoms you have described, but it won't affect compression numbers unless it jams and takes a few belt teeth off, causing the cam/crank relationship to move.

Low compression alone could cause drivability problems, but not likely a no-start, and would not jump your timing. Clutch bumping it did not jump your belt. It is very unlikely that rings alone would account for such low numbers, even if you forgot to put them in. I have melted pistons that still blew 80psi.

For you to have compression as low as 30psi, you have (in order of my opinion of likelihood, least to most):
-holes in all your pistons, which means you hammered the engine to death in less than 20 minutes
-dropped valves or other FOD in all of the cylinders... oops
-your camshaft has broken
-your camshaft to crank timing has jumped, or otherwise was set incorrectly

If you look at the comp numbers, all 4 are very low. 1&4 and 2&3 are very close, these groups of cylinders also share bore position (1&4 at top, 2&3 at bottom cylinder). Probably not coincidence, and unlikely random ring wear would produce these values and distributions. Something about fluid dynamics explains why the doubling of the low numbers when oil is added, where you would only see a small increase at higher pressures, but I'm not smart enough to explain it.

My best scenario is this....
Car dies for unrelated reason (plugged fuel pickup sock in tank). When the timing is checked, because they are expecting to find a timing problem (that's why they checked!), maybe your mechanic *thinks* the timing is 180* out (perhaps did not set the engine to BTDC#1, a sloppy but easy mistake to make, and makes things appear 180* out) and resets the correct timing so that is now really is 180* out. The engine still won't start. The subsequent phantom compression test presents a misleading result, since the timing is believed to be correct, but is in fact the cause of the low numbers. To make matters worse, trying to find the cause of the low compression while excluding timing as a possible cause moves you even further from finding the original problem, or amending for the previous incorrect diagnosis and *repair*. You now have two problems, neither of which you are really looking for.

How did I do?

[owensmat]

Thanks for the support. You guys are great for helping out! The detail and effort that you guys provide is very much appreciated. I will keep your usernames and if this gets going, will see you guys at an event and repay the kindness with beer. I'm not sure if its a good thing or not. You guys are starting to give me hope again and I'm not sure I can have hope with this car. I call it the "hope crusher". There's been so many more things that I haven't even mentioned, like the alternator, gas tank, battery, etc. A bunch of little things. Anyways, everything is new on this thing. Hence the $10,500 I have into it. I know, I'm a dummy, but I wanted it to be good so I could love it. Anyways, to answer some of the questions that might help further:
When it ran, vaccuum at idle was 15psi. Keep in mind though that it wouldn't stay running at straight idle. We had to prop the idle up about 500rpm to keep it idling for the 20 minutes that we had it going. Again also, it died on the first road test, which only lasted 1/8th of a mile. Very conservatively driven for that 1/8th mile too. No beatings given.
The timing was set prior to the initial engine start, just like the diagram shows. I suppose it could've been a possibility that we set it 180degrees off, but very unlikely. We checked it twice. It should also be mentioned that with the previous engine, we had a problem where the timing jumped a little bit a couple of times, but it was only slightly and that was the old engine. Everything else is new now. Engine, belts, head, etc. The only thing we reused was the cam, which mic'd out within tolerance.
Also, the compression remained unchanged both before the timing being off and after the timing being off. How could that be??
The fuel pressure wasn't measured when it was running. Only when cranking, cuz the car was running well at first, so we didn't think to check it until it wouldn't run and then we were checking everything to rule out possibilities.
We did confirm the engine was getting both fuel and spark. We pulled each plug and observed a hot spark from each. You could smell the fuel from the cylinders when we were testing compression and the fuel pressure was reading good. We even tried starting fluid in the intake and nothing. My guy told me that it didn't have enough compression to run. Can a car run with compression that low? I would guess it could if one or maybe two of the cylinders were that low, but with 30, 55, 60, 30, I wouldn't imagine it would run?
Ok, I hope this helps with some more good tips from you guys. Thanks again!!

[bris09]

I don't know about 30psi, but I know they will start and run suprisingly well at 60psi. I drove the 83 for a year with the compression at 60-65psi on each cylinder.

[NAJ]

It seems unlikely (although anything is possible) that the rings in all 4 cylinders would go at the same time.
This is one of those cases where online diagnostics are difficult, I (we), if we were there would know exactly what we would be looking for.
If you want to be positive the low compression numbers are caused by bottom end problems remove all the rocker arms, unplug the fuel pump and redo the compression test, that way you know all valves are closed, if the numbers increase the problem is not the rings.
If it turns out to be cam timing remember that after installing the belt rotate the engine 2 revolutions clockwise by hand(by the crank, not the cam) and then recheck mark alignment and belt tension.
Just incase there was an oversight (it has happened before) remember the head is on an angle and the cam sprocket slot is aligned to 12 o'clock with the center line of the head, not 12 o'clock straight up and down.
I know you are looking at low compression numbers but just out of curiosity are any fault codes present?
A code 54(dist pickup fuel sync) will still give you spark and fuel but a no start condition.

[kastlrock]

hello everyone.

i bought this car last week.
in fact the rings are the problem. It seems all the rings where seized on the pistons. The pistons look perfect, i measures the pistons to bore size and it appears they are a bit tight ( so I think ) 3.472 on the skirt 3.4735 on the cylinder's. there is no crosshatch left in the cylinders.
any advice would be appreciated. I am new to the turbo dodge's