GM 3100 V.S. retainers Why? what an I missing

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92TurboTona i will probably throw in the beehive springs as i will be running custom upper plenum ported lower runners mild ported head with +1mm exhaust valves +20's ported exhaust manifold stock or S60 turbo F2-3 cam adjustable cam gear .40 over forged pistons with T2 rods from cindy

the plenum and the cam are going to move way too much air at lower boost for +20s. Need +40s.
I'd run a T04E 46trim compressor if you can swing it
F2, not the F3. heads gain flow from lift with boost. F2 is a mild cam, with the plenum you may be able to push a F4 though. Depends on RPM range you want, the F2 is going to run harder at lower RPM closer to stock.

Going bigger on a turbo and the plenum add a lot of air. Just the plenum and mild top end porting is too much for +20s unless your going to run a stage 3 and 15 PSI. Even 10 PSI the engine is going to be making great power on the street. So +40s and a bigger turbo is what you want. The other issue is boost response. Without a hybrid the S60 is even going to hit like a sledge hammer. Which sounds fun but it just makes for more spin and less go. With street tires, ported top end and 3" exhaust my GLHS would break them loose hitting boost in 3rd. If you want a little less power, not 400 HP then run less boost with a 46 trim or S50 T04E. Your really at the stage 2 level not at stage 1.

[92TurboTona]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope the plenum and the cam are going to move way too much air at lower boost for +20s. Need +40s. I'd run a T04E 46trim compressor if you can swing it F2, not the F3. heads gain flow from lift with boost. F2 is a mild cam, with the plenum you may be able to push a F4 though. Depends on RPM range you want, the F2 is going to run harder at lower RPM closer to stock. Going bigger on a turbo and the plenum add a lot of air. Just the plenum and mild top end porting is too much for +20s unless your going to run a stage 3 and 15 PSI. Even 10 PSI the engine is going to be making great power on the street. So +40s and a bigger turbo is what you want. The other issue is boost response. Without a hybrid the S60 is even going to hit like a sledge hammer. Which sounds fun but it just makes for more spin and less go. With street tires, ported top end and 3" exhaust my GLHS would break them loose hitting boost in 3rd. If you want a little less power, not 400 HP then run less boost with a 46 trim or S50 T04E. Your really at the stage 2 level not at stage 1.

i really dont plan on hitting any higher than 5000 RPM as it will stay a auto, and i will probably put out between 15-20psi of boost, if the f2 cam will work i will grab one of those and was hoping to run a s60 or a hybrid turbo, but if you think it will be better with a s50 then i will hunt one down

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92TurboTona i really dont plan on hitting any higher than 5000 RPM as it will stay a auto, and i will probably put out between 15-20psi of boost, if the f2 cam will work i will grab one of those and was hoping to run a s60 or a hybrid turbo, but if you think it will be better with a s50 then i will hunt one down

Being an auto I would run the 46 trim hybrid and the F2 and a 58mm TB on the plenum to get a big jump in flow before boost. It isn't going to want to be shifted at 5000 RPM though lol.

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92TurboTona i really dont plan on hitting any higher than 5000 RPM as it will stay a auto, and i will probably put out between 15-20psi of boost, if the f2 cam will work i will grab one of those and was hoping to run a s60 or a hybrid turbo, but if you think it will be better with a s50 then i will hunt one down

You won't spin it to 5000K but then if you don't plan on revving spending all that money on conicals is a waste, just get some S60 type valve springs, they'll be just fine.

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Originally Posted by the poope http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/...-beehives.html first the thread / FAQ. When people go off the beaten path and start making there own setups, like you read on T-M they start manufacturing problems. .

Wow,

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman You won't spin it to 5000K but then if you don't plan on revving spending all that money on conicals is a waste, just get some S60 type valve springs, they'll be just fine. Wow,

when people read posts from Turbovanman on the conicals keep in mind that other than my self he was the third to try them. But unlike me and Detobias who has been running them for years now. Turbovanman didn't follow directions and put in the 3.3 springs without shims, which makes for way too little seat pressure.

The bad thing about running the Beehives, a Com Cams brand name for conical springs BTW, is that the Beehives have the S60 springs seat and open pressures for a big cam. A lot of pressure for a stock cam, more than you need. So I mention the 3.3 springs or the MP 813 springs which are a cheap MP spring with dampener at near stock turbo spring rates.

Lastly 92TurboTona is not going to be running 5,000 RPM with the plenum and the cam, it is going to fly to 7,000 RPM. So in your case the Beehives are a good idea. Yeah $100 in springs vs $60, wah.

[ohnotagain]

i find it comical that someone who s a TIII geek and doesnt even own an 8 valve car anymore is trying to tell 8v guys what to run. especially when its already been established years ago that the beehive springs are a major improvement over stock style springs.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohnotagain i find it comical that someone who s a TIII geek and doesnt even own an 8 valve car anymore is trying to tell 8v guys what to run. especially when its already been established years ago that the beehive springs are a major improvement over stock style springs.

Well every mag you read and every engine builder is going to them and loves them. They are better for a lot of reasons. He is just stiring the pot a little lol. For the longest time he thought the only Beehives even used were the 3.3s, telling people they have no seat pressure and bind. By that time Boostgeek was already using them with a .550" lift cam

The 3.3s are a PITA with running shims, if you don't run them you have issues as Simon did. Hopefully some more options come out with the springs in the right size that are a little softer. Right now were have a great stock replacement, 3.3, and a great race spring for all available race cars, the Beehive. But no mild performance spring.

Were looking for a 1.70" install height
.650" top ID
1" bottom ID
.500"-.600" bind conical spring

Those are the specs we look at, the Beehive and the 3.3 fits it. The 3.3 installed height is actually lower at around 1.6". So a stiff spring for 1.6" would be nice, as it'll soften by 1.7" or a spring at those specs with 110 seat at 1.7" would be nice. The Beehives are 145 like a s60 and the 3.3s are 105 with shims. So even a 110-125 range for a mid spring would be nice to find.

[ohnotagain]

the crane 996 springs on my head state a 1.7" installed height. there are probably a hundred different springs avaliable for the GM LSx engines from different manufacturers.

in fact im looking at the crane catalog right now. i'm seeing several springs that are in that range, between 107 and 115 lbs seat pressure closed with an installed height of 1.7" inner diameter of 1.030" not sure if they are beehives or not, their catalog is set up kind of weird. but there are several that fit those specs.

that ideal stock replacement/ mild perf spring is out there, just have to find it.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohnotagain the crane 996 springs on my head state a 1.7" installed height. there are probably a hundred different springs avaliable for the GM LSx engines from different manufacturers. in fact im looking at the crane catalog right now. i'm seeing several springs that are in that range, between 107 and 115 lbs seat pressure closed with an installed height of 1.7" inner diameter of 1.030" not sure if they are beehives or not, their catalog is set up kind of weird. but there are several that fit those specs. that ideal stock replacement/ mild perf spring is out there, just have to find it.

yes there is limitless choices in old style springs, I was talking about conical springs and Crane doesn't even sell conicals..

Also, were running LS retainers, not LS springs. The Springs are Magnum Dodge springs. One thing I have thought of is the newer HO 3.8 springs, they may be stronger than 3.3 springs using a larger cam.

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope when people read posts from Turbovanman on the conicals keep in mind that other than my self he was the third to try them. But unlike me and Detobias who has been running them for years now. Turbovanman didn't follow directions and put in the 3.3 springs without shims, which makes for way too little seat pressure. The bad thing about running the Beehives, a Com Cams brand name for conical springs BTW, is that the Beehives have the S60 springs seat and open pressures for a big cam. A lot of pressure for a stock cam, more than you need. So I mention the 3.3 springs or the MP 813 springs which are a cheap MP spring with dampener at near stock turbo spring rates. Lastly 92TurboTona is not going to be running 5,000 RPM with the plenum and the cam, it is going to fly to 7,000 RPM. So in your case the Beehives are a good idea. Yeah $100 in springs vs $60, wah.

You seem to forget that there was no mention of shims back then and why would you want to shim a spring a ton, seat pressure closed is 60 psi? If you want to shim a ton, knock your socks off. $100 in springs? Where, unless you get someone to split a set, your spending alot more than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohnotagain i find it comical that someone who s a TIII geek and doesnt even own an 8 valve car anymore is trying to tell 8v guys what to run. especially when its already been established years ago that the beehive springs are a major improvement over stock style springs.

Its called advice, deal with it. Everyone has different goals, the OP mentioned not revving it out incase your reading comprehension sucks. Some people don't want to spend $200+ on springs, retainers etc when HD replacement springs work fine for the mass's. Better go tell Shadow his regular springs don't work on his almost 9 sec Shadow.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman You seem to forget that there was no mention of shims back then and why would you want to shim a spring a ton, seat pressure closed is 60 psi? If you want to shim a ton, knock your socks off. $100 in springs? Where, unless you get someone to split a set, your spending alot more than that. Its called advice, deal with it. Everyone has different goals, the OP mentioned not revving it out incase your reading comprehension sucks. Some people don't want to spend $200+ on springs, retainers etc when HD replacement springs work fine for the mass's. Better go tell Shadow his regular springs don't work on his almost 9 sec Shadow.

you've always been able to buy the 26995 springs one at a time, -1 instead of -16 off the end of the part number.....

The 3.3s were always installed to bind. But as time has gone on most just use a .050" shim. The origanal thread I told everyone to set them to a .480" bind, you dropped them in. Then for years bad mouthed the conicals for not working right. For the first 2 years I brought up the beehives on TM you told people they don't have any seat pressure LMAO. Even though the Comp Beehives have 145 lbs of seat pressure The worst part is you selling "Comp" springs. I've had complaints from members that bought the "Comp" springs from you and they weren't Beehives. They don't like it when I tell them you don't sell the good stuff, and to any members reading this ALWAYS BUY BY PART NUMBER. Don't "expect" to get something by name.

People make old springs work and people make the old lifters work too, neither are better though. That is a fact, not opinion. Whether or not people use the old type or new type is choice. Now am I saying that they end all spring buying for any engine? No. But for any Turbo 8v 2.2 engine they do end all searches below .600" lift. One of my 440s for instance runs a mechanical full roller, lifters and rockers with 1.7:1 rockers and a .645" lift cam at 1.5:1. It needs a dual spring setup. PTs and the 26995 springs work great on Boostgeeks 7,000+ RPM engine with a wopping .550" lift cam! Which reminds me I need to bug him about getting one of those.... But regardless as the cams for turbos just aren't any bigger there is no reason, yet, for a better valve train.

[The Pope]

Come to think of it though Simon, the PT and conical spring mod came out just before TM came around. As I don't spend hardly any time there and you left Turbododge I suppose I can see how you may have made the mistake. I know Detobias did the mod not long after you did and his setup has had no troubles. But he also has been on TD over the years though, where these mods have been talked about. The PT mod is one of the more popular mods for the 8v engine. But folks on TM consider it to be "miss information", me and GLHNSLHT2 were both kicked off the FMML mailing list for even mentioning them.

Shadow is going to PTs for instance, he talks about his lifters "clattering" at the end of a run. Shel-game used them and gained ET with them, getting back power he lost. All with a mod that has been shunned by the TM crowd for at least 8 years now. So I under stand why you didn't do the 3.3 mod right, you weren't here to know any better. I would love to bring up the TBI cam too, running NA cams in a turbo car and how much BS that group gave for that. I suspect the TBI cam mod still gets bashed over there too but that isn't relevant to this thread.

[turbovanman]

Never ever put down PT's, I recommend it all the time. I've also NEVER offered my Comp cam "REPLACEMENT SPRING" that are equivelant to S60 springs as Conicals. Quit making stuff up.

As for your 3.3 springs, blah blah blah, its a weak spring that takes a big shim to equal stockers, why bother risking coil bind. All it takes is someone to miscalculate and boom, drop a valve. Do it right or don't bother.

[The Pope]

I didn't say that you sold the Comp springs as conicals, I said people bought your Comp springs thinking they were beehives.

In a mild setup never seeing a big cam the 3.3s are fine.