3.3 valve springs shims

[rustytoolss]

I know everyone says bee hives are the way to go. BUT I do not ever plan to run a bigger cam EVER. So with that said , would there be any problem shiming a set of USED 3.3 valve spring a total of .060" (2 of the stock .030" shims) under each spring , since I have those on hand ?

[The Pope]

makes bind comes closer by .010". You should setup the engine after valve grind and find out where your bind comes in. Your installed height could be anywhere from 1.75-1.65 inch changing how much shim you use. Only using a stock cam you should be fine. But if your cam was a .460" lift cam and you had tall seats you could have a bind at .465" for instance.

So you shim them for the near stock seat pressure with boost, but if your running a stock cam there isn't a big fear of hitting at .060"

[turbovanman]

Don't waste your time, just buy some proper stock replacements, IE S60 springs. I have some new drop in replacements for $75 plus shipping.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman Don't waste your time, just buy some proper stock replacements, IE S60 springs. I have some new drop in replacements for $75 plus shipping.

when people read posts from Turbovanman on the conicals keep in mind that other than my self he was the third to try them. But unlike me and Detobias who has been running them for years now. Turbovanman didn't follow directions and put in the 3.3 springs without shims, which makes for way too little seat pressure.

The bad thing about running the Beehives, a Com Cams brand name for conical springs BTW, is that the Beehives have the S60 springs seat and open pressures for a big cam. A lot of pressure for a stock cam, more than you need. So I mention the 3.3 springs or the MP 813 springs which are a cheap MP spring with dampener at near stock turbo spring rates.

[turbovanman]

And again, back in the day, there was no mention of springs. The 3.3 conicals are 60 psi closed, so to make them half decent, you need a ton of shims, waste of time, either by the proper conicals or get HD stock type replacements.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman And again, back in the day, there was no mention of springs. The 3.3 conicals are 60 psi closed, so to make them half decent, you need a ton of shims, waste of time, either by the proper conicals or get HD stock type replacements.

So your trying to convince the guy that created the mod that springs, ah shims weren't with the mod? Ah, part of the mod including the WHY the shims needed to be there. That WHY was to get the spring rate up to stock turbo rates.

I agree the Comp Beehives are much better than the 3.3 springs. But for the money and depending on how far your going with the build. Again if your running a TBI cam, not porting or plenum and need for 30 PSI of boost and 7000 RPM. You may not need to spend $100 on springs. For the record, after 5000 miles of 6500 RPM shifting 30% of the stock turbo springs were down to 60 lbs on the seat. So having roughly 110 on the seats, even miles later makes the 3.3 springs look good. Even though they aren't a "racing" spring.

[turbovanman]

Your saying you get 110 out of the 3.3's? how thick are the shims, 1/2 inch? As for stockers being around 60 psi, never seen one that low.
As for the shims, it was never brought up, sorry your memory is fading.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman Your saying you get 110 out of the 3.3's? how thick are the shims, 1/2 inch? As for stockers being around 60 psi, never seen one that low. As for the shims, it was never brought up, sorry your memory is fading.

My car was the first to use 3.3 springs, they were installed using a spring gauge to work the seat pressure to 110. Not 110 open. The coils of the 3.3s are tighter than the Comps, so they bind quickly. Testing was done at the installed hieght or the new turbo springs, then the 3.3 springs were shimmed and tested until the reached stock seat pressures. Then installed using that shim.

My first time I was using custom valves from FWDperformance, it was my 3rd set of valves and the head was down for months. At the time I was still using my GLHS as a daily driver. After a year I got impatient and used the last set of valves. They were a whole .010" too long at the installed hieght with a 782 head (the longer valve head). So fat seats and more shims went in for the exhaust valves. So the first head had a lot of shimming to it and they worked fine. In my case as custom as the head was I mentioned the mod with the "shim to bind at .480"". I didn't pay attention to the stock exhaust hieght and shim amount, others over the years use .050" and it works. The only difference between the 3.3 mod today vs back then is how the shims are done. We just call out .050" today instead of saying shim to bind.

Yes closing 43 my memory is fading, I give you that. Hard to remember yesterday very well. But as with age you remember things from years ago clearly, even more than the day before. After about 8 years now when these were done it is easier to remember

[detobias]

back to the OP-
this sounds like a question of 'how cheap can I go,.,.' ?

if you stack (2) .030 with used 3.3s =
will the setup be close enough to not manifest any problems?

no-one can answer that, besides either -
probably, probably not, or maybe. pick one.

as Pope said, what *should* be done is -
Your machinist sets up your head.

this *should* (if your machinist is competent) include
measuring installed (closed) and open pressure for EACH spring,
measuring 'closed height' after the valve grinding,
and calculating 'open height' with the specs for the cam you plan to use;

there is usually some variability,
typically not meeting a desired closed pressure,., ie one or more springs is 'soft',.
if deviation consider too much, then shims are used to bring the closed pressure up of soft spring(s)..
WHILE making sure that coil bind at max cam lift doesnt occur,
or a max open pressure isnt exceeded.

this is part of your 'valve job' or 'assembly' charge.

nothing wrong with using shims, in fact *not using* them means -
not much detail went into equalizing the springs..

IF you do not have this done when installing :
used, old OE,
new OE or OE replacement,
used or new 'hi-performance'/aftermarket,
new or used non-OE part like conical springs or toyota valves,
etc. ...

THEN you are ignoring a critical aspect of your 'rebuilt head',
and gambling..

at least take yur springs in to the shop and have em checked;
might cost 10-20$ or some beer, or free ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman And again, back in the day, there was no mention of springs.

do you mean shims?

zero points for bringing up history.
if 'back in the day' "someone" set up a head with 3.3s and didnt check installed pressure ,
then "someone" made the mistake...
it *should* have been part of the install..

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman The 3.3 conicals are 60 psi closed, so to make them half decent, you need a ton of shims, waste of time,

where are you getting this 'fact'/generalization?
cuz its wrong,,

when my head was set up, my machinist found - as expected -
my used 3.3s were 10-15 lbs low on closed pressure (I asked for 105#);
he also found that adding .050s (or was it .050 total? I forget..) brought them all up within couple #s of 105..
problem solved, no need for "a ton" of shims,
no extra time invested - this is part of a routine valve job labor

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman either by the proper conicals or get HD stock type replacements.

or find someone competent to do your machine shop work,
that isnt baffled by the 3.3 springs..

wait lol you'll STILL need someone competent to install your "new" parts

my guy:

install aftermarket 36.8mm exh valves on stock seats with multi angle cut - no problem, no extra charge
install dual spring teflon valve seals - no problem, no extra charge
install wacky v6 3.3 spring with GM retainer - no problem, no extra charge
install 'PT' lifters with Pope shims and verify proper geometry maintained - no problem, no extra charge

in fact this was all included in the 125$ "SOHC 8V 4-cylinder valve job" cost ..
altho that was 7 or so years ago;
it may be 150$ now ;)