Fuel pump doesn't stop priming, low pressure.

[phantomrt]

NICE! I'm glad you figured it out! I would never have guessed that was the problem.

[itsbudda]

Well I haven't figured it out yet. I just know it's definitely a wiring issue. I've narrowed the fault down to being somewhere between the front bumper and back bumper . Funny that you mention, the pump wiring was just twisted and electrical taped originally when the car was built. The most recent owner had just gone through and replaced all the splices he found with crimp or solder joints. Red flag right there, but I'm naive, and wanted the car regardless. The car had been running this setup (as far as I know reliably) for over 5 years. Of course it would go wrong after only 2 hours! lol

Anyway, I traced the fuel pump wire (the orange one in the picture with the random fuse) from the battery to one of the smaller firewall boots (i think clutch cable?) that had an added cut out for this wire, and a black one. The black wire's got a bit that's been chewed open. I wiggled it a little hoping to get the car to start with no luck, and the copper looks intact, but I'm still hoping that's the problem. I'll repair it tomorrow and see. I'm hoping to hear back from either previous owner to where they go exactly before I dig too much deeper, but it's probably just hooked directly to the ignition. Perhaps the orange wire goes straight to the pump, or is more indirect. Idk yet. Anyway It died without any fanfare cruising about 70 on the highway, and never kicked on during the 1/4 mile or so the engine coasted, so it's not just when the starter is engaged. Who knows, maybe just the fuse blew, but the fact the pump turned on at all sheds doubt.

As far as timing cover, like A/C removal i think it's more a cosmetic thing than anything. Alot of people like the open belt look for some reason, despite our best interests. It's like that weird tire stretching fad that the import guys are doing.

Also, I know it goes without saying, but holy s***. In what world does a bad timing belt mean new engine on a 2.5? Did they think it was interference? What?

What?!?

[phantomrt]

If the drivetrain and body of the car are overall in really good shape, I wouldn't worry much about the annoyances. Those are cheap to fix to make it reliable and only take time and labor. In such cases, I wouldn't consider the car to be a rip off especially if it has a ton of really good parts on it. But it worries me because goofies will often go hand-in-hand.

Splash shields and timing covers are not cosmetics in my book. In this Honda I speak of as an example, (and I can't see why most other cars are not at the same risk) you could look past the tire and see the timing belt. So, let me see.... tires kick up rocks, rocks fly around in wheel wells all the time, and what if one somehow bounced over to the belt? That engine could very well be reduced to junk.com after that. Other non-interference engines would probably survive as could an interference one, but if that is a risk that you feel is acceptable to take, go for it. With as clumsy as I can be, I'd hate to drop a socket or something down there while the engine is running and OOPS!

The Acclaim I speak of was actually a V-6, but the same principle applies. An engine with bent valves sounds a lot different while cranking than one with a broken timing belt, but what do I know? But yes, they figured it was junk because the belt broke.

When my brother worked for Carquest, I overheard him arguing with one of his accounts regarding an engine that broke a timing belt and wasn't making any compression so it obviously had bent valves when it was actually a non-interference application. And yes, they were doing the compression test without a belt on it. The account was trying to warranty the reman engine that they installed. *sigh*

So, when it comes to me, all bets are off. The glass is definitely half empty. In fact, I'll bet it is at least 51/100ths empty.

[itsbudda]

Well the fuel pump's toggle switched now and working perfectly. But that's the least of my worries.

Seriously. Wtf. This is the second time this has happened to me in 8 months, on a different car even!

P1030008 by itsbudda, on Flickr

[phantomrt]

Has anyone figured out what causes this? Some say it is because of a timing belt that is too tight but I have serious doubts about that, especially considering where this cam broke.

I personally blame it on a previously bent cam and/or warped head that was not align honed. If the cam deflects .002" with every revolution, the cast iron isn't going to be particularly happy about that after a few hundred million revolutions and it eventually cracks. Bolt another cam in there (preferably known good) with the followers removed and see if it spins freely. You should be able to spin it by hand. If not, either that cam is bent or the head is messed up or both.

I've seen pictures of a Toyota Avalon that snapped a cam because, we believe, a cam journal seized up from lack of lubrication. Interesting is that it still ran somewhat, and it threw a cam sensor code because the part of the cam where the sensor was wasn't spinning anymore.

EDIT: The block could be messed up, too. If a straight head is bolted to a warped block, something has to give. So, usually you want to make sure the cam spins freely in an unbolted head, and if it binds up when the head is bolted down, there are issues. I had the opposite happen to me where the cam didn't spin well until after it was bolted down. Just use your imagination on what is going on there.

[itsbudda]

Idk. This is the second cam I've snapped in months. The last cam was in my Dodge spirit that had .008 milled because of warpage. So there's a culprit.

The head in the Daytona is a Menegon ported Swirl race head with Manley springs, retainers, and 1mm o/s valves. The cam's a taft stage 2, and it has 2.4 lifters. Only with 4-6000 miles on it since being built. I would hope someone who put this much money in the car would have used a good head, but also I know little about it's history since being built in 06.

Whatever the case, I just swapped a rebuilt head on my currently salvage title Spirit from Cylinder Heads International (btw they're legit. I recommend.) right before wrecking it. I suppose I might as well farm the head for the Daytona, because I am already $1,000 overspent and totally broke. The car's not even in my name yet. I still have to pay sales tax. Damn it.

[itsbudda]

And actually, probably belt tension being too high. In the spirit 9-10 months ago, I didn't quite know what I was doing with belt tension when doing timing and it kept jumping time from being loose, so I just went with the "Tight is right, right?" rule and mashed the tensioner on there about as hard as I could.

And the previous owner just recently replaced the oil pump and redid timing. Both cams snapped in the exact same place under the same conditions (60mph, 3000 rpm) 10 miles after stopping for gas 100+ miles into a road trip.

Definitely buying a tension tool. You'd probably slap me if you saw how I did it last time with 2 prybars. You get frustrated, you make mistakes.

[NAJ]

Belt has to ride in the center of the Cam sprocket.
Riding to the outside is too tight.
Riding to the inside is too loose.

I have a video of where the belt should run but it is in 3GP and I have no idea how to upload it so it can be seen.

[itsbudda]

Seems to be running on the tight side in these pictures.
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~asavagl1/images/IMG_1015.JPG
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~asavagl1/images/IMG_1017.JPG

[phantomrt]

If the cam broke near the pulley and the pulley effectively fell off, then yes, I can imagine belt tension as being a plausible culprit. However, they always break between cam journal towers. It doesn't seem plausible for excessive belt force to cause a cam to break on the other side of the fulcrum like that. I would THINK that if a belt had the capability to cause such damage, broken engine accessories such as water pumps and alternators would be much more common than they are because they are such a common item for backyard mechanics to replace on their own and they DO come up with creative ways to make things "not right" and that includes belt tension. I find it to be pretty uncommon for such accessory failures despite finding a lot of really tight belts over the years.

I have yet to witness timing belt tension as being a consistent factor in how a belt centers itself. You can adjust belt tension while the engine is running like I did and I saw absolutely no change in where the belt ran. The first time I tried this was on a Chrysler 2.5L engine because the belt would rub on the inside at the crank gear and make a "tisk tisk tisk" noise. Million dollar whore tight or nickel whore loose, it made no difference whatsoever. I replaced the belt and it rode in a completely different spot and there was with no more rubbing. Then for the fun of it, I tried on my friend's 1995 Escort wagon--no difference. Then I did it on my Geo Metro (about a 35 minute experiment). No difference. That's when I gave up with that theory. So, I still don't know why people swear that it makes a difference. Either they have belts where the cords on one side of the belt are inconsistent with the ones with the other side, or there is so much slop in the main bearings and/or the cam bearings that it is actually allowing the cam and/or crank to run at a different angle and allow the belt to walk to one side. But if that was the case, when the engine was under load, the crank would get pushed downward and cause it to run differently again. I don't know. I'm just sharing MY experience.

[itsbudda]

The bearings and everything looked fine. i slapped a 94 tbi cam and the car fired right up and sounds pretty happy. Maybe it'll break another one, maybe not. Here's hoping not.

[phantomrt]

Did you install the new cam without the followers and see if it spins freely or not?

[itsbudda]

In retrospect, I really should have. I just didn't even think. This was my first time actually swapping a cam and I was too preoccupied worrying I'd screw something else that I didn't want to touch anything else. I had no trouble turning the cam while timing, but that's hardly a test. I suppose I'll just wait and see. It'd probably be worthwhile to teardown and check it, but I'm kinda reluctant to tear it apart again unless there's issue. If it breaks, at least it was only a $20 junkyard cam. I'll see where to go from there. Maybe I'll get lucky and I'll get a few years out of it. My spirit cam survived a warped head for 4+ years.