removed the cat, what a difference

[mmtphoto]

Like that little 'tool' thing, don't ya?

It's ok , I can dish out (twice) what I get, can you? Kind of miserable when people have to get on and do the internet bully stuff. I did not start with Scream, or All, or you-try not to be so defensive, just acknowledging your status as the GRAMMER troll here (just a little joke, Ya know?)

Get lots of good information on here and the knowledge of some helpful posters is invaluable to those of us who are rusty understanding 20 year old technology. Banter is one thing-
I'll stop here and hope you have a full time job to go to now.

[Sittn86]

I've been working all night. It gets a bit boring out here sometimes, so sometimes ya gotta shake the kettle. I never try to really piss anyone off, though.

[22dodge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mmtphoto OMG, it's the GRAMMAR NAZI-shouldn't you get back to trolling your local Craigslist? And, Scream, I hear you-I really am just thinking out loud, hacking off the cat yesterday and dropping the ugly 15 lbs, getting a little more boost, just wondered about what else...ya know. Actually, even though I'd like to run 25,000 lbs. of boost, I've had this car for 20 years and resist going overboard. Not worth blown headgaskets, cracked/broken pistons, axle/cv joints, not to mention tickets. If anyone out there needs help with proofreading, I'm certain Sittn 86 (you are aware your name is somehow defective with regards to speling, aren't you?) is willing to help out.

I'd like to buy your old catalytic converter. shoot me a price

[gkcooper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by allmotor evap has zero,no, nada effect on fuel mileage or driveablitily. egr does increase fuel milage. egr lets the engine run leaner - better mpg- but cools combustion to reduce detonation- very bad effect of a lean a/f mix. egr only comes on during hot cruise.

Wrong, and uh, wrong. Try it and see. Get some good numbers first. It isn't a huge difference, but there is a difference. Debate or not, the engineers who designed the system put it there for a reason (or several actually).

The internet empowers everyone with a keyboard to "add" to collective knowledge. Most of which is crap. I am not trying to belittle anyone with that statement either. It is sad that the only way someone with experience and knowledge can get "cred" in a blog is to debate about things like an evap cannister endlessly.

If you have two vehicles being identicle and you remove only the evac cannister from one of them, it will have a stumble at idle and get 1-2 mpg less in cruise for the first 40 or so miles. After that, it's a wash. Facts matter and everything else is fluff.

[22dodge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gkcooper Wrong, and uh, wrong. Try it and see. Get some good numbers first. It isn't a huge difference, but there is a difference. Debate or not, the engineers who designed the system put it there for a reason (or several actually). The internet empowers everyone with a keyboard to "add" to collective knowledge. Most of which is crap. I am not trying to belittle anyone with that statement either. It is sad that the only way someone with experience and knowledge can get "cred" in a blog is to debate about things like an evap cannister endlessly. If you have two vehicles being identicle and you remove only the evac cannister from one of them, it will have a stumble at idle and get 1-2 mpg less in cruise for the first 40 or so miles. After that, it's a wash. Facts matter and everything else is fluff.

I don't think that's an accurate statement. EVAP's only sole purpose is to prevent HC vapors from entering the atmosphere. You can completely eliminate it and plug off the vacuum port and there will be no effect on driveability. EVAPfirst came into existance in the late 60's in California, as a method to reduce SMOG. It is effective in absorbing vapors then purging the canister during engine operation. If you think it effects fuel milage, would you clearly and scientifically prove and support that statement of improving fuel milage. If you can do so, I will gladly believe that theory. Until you can document your opinion, I'll just keep believing the true reality of this system.

[gkcooper]

Opinions are indeed free. Facts are available to whomever seeks them out.

I failed to mention that I am an ex-Chrysler FUEL INJECTION ENGINEER.

[mmtphoto]

I never really considered removing the EGR, because the tables for the computer rely too much on what it does to the mix to consider circumventing it-the evap system, however, is another story, but I have to agree that if it is not having a negative effect there is little value in removing it. All it might do is screw up what is otherwise a decent running twenty year old car. The emissions systems, with the vacuum difficulties and the turbo in the mix, were probably so inter related that circumventing anything major if nothing is wrong is probably a mistake.

Just thinking out loud, I did not want to start fights (or even disagreements). Along with some somewhat complicated iron I own (2002 Olds Aurora 4.0, 96 Lincoln Mark VIII, 3000 gt, STS, and yes, I do all my own wrenching, but I look for ideas and information before I tackle anything out of the ordinary. I have basic and easy vehicles to work on -Old GTO's, Gran Sports, Mustangs (crown jewel, a GT500 KR), Chevys and dozens of others-not a chip among them (barely a transistor, in fact) and they are easy to work on-I do like the challenge of understanding the subtle interactions of the systems on a 'modern' engine with computer controls>.

GKCooper, your input is helpful, I don't want to remove anything that is not only not causing a problem, but actually is helpful to mileage and driveability.

Now if there was a way to control wise ass replys that are pointless, serve no constructive purpose...I'll dream on-

...thanks for all the thought-related contributions, here's counting on my editor/proof reader making corrections before the trolls pick it apart.

[22dodge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gkcooper Opinions are indeed free. Facts are available to whomever seeks them out. I failed to mention that I am an ex-Chrysler FUEL INJECTION ENGINEER.

Did I fail to mention that I'm a retired Chrysler service trainer. And I wrote several of the training manuals. I worked in the Training center in Centerline, MI. And I worked in the emissions lab including the Shed.

So if you want to compare credentials, we can do that. Oh and I have a MSME, ASE master certification, Bachelors in Mathematics with a minor in Education.

So can you show proof to back the statement that EVAP increased fuel mileage? I'm asking so I am no-longer misinformed no make false statements about what I've learned and experimented with my personal EVAP testing.

[mmtphoto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22dodge Did I fail to mention that I'm a retired Chrysler service trainer. And I wrote several of the training manuals. I worked in the Training center in Centerline, MI. And I worked in the emissions lab including the Shed. So if you want to compare credentials, we can do that. Oh and I have a MSME, ASE master certification, Bachelors in Mathematics with a minor in Education. So can you show proof to back the statement that EVAP increased fuel mileage? I'm asking so I am no-longer misinformed no make false statements about what I've learned and experimented with my personal EVAP testing.

If the 'training manuals' are anything like the factory service manuals....na, forget I said that

[22dodge]

So, back to my question. Do you want to sell the old cat?

Before you throw stones at my work, maybe you need to know which manuals I was part of writing. And the FSM's are pretty darn good. You also need to realize, they are written to the service technician, who has more background in mechanical aptitude than the average TD owner.

[GLHNSLHT2]

the FSM's rock! I removed my Evap, and don't have EGR at all. 2.5 turboShelbyZ get's 34/40. How's that for your theorys? I must be a better Chrysler Fuel Injection Engineer than you.

[Sittn86]

The only reason I ever said anything about grammar was that your original instruction to allmotor to watch his 'grammer' contained a spelling error. It was a simple observation that made me chuckle. I don't personally give a shit how someone types; I made a smart-ass remark to lighten the mood. How 'bout we all just get over it?

[mmtphoto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22dodge So, back to my question. Do you want to sell the old cat? Before you throw stones at my work, maybe you need to know which manuals I was part of writing. And the FSM's are pretty darn good. You also need to realize, they are written to the service technician, who has more background in mechanical aptitude than the average TD owner.

not throwing stones, I didn't see YOUR manuals, I have the blue set of manuals (3) and just commented that they leave much to the imagination when in the middle of a problem-I'm sure YOUR manuals are great.

I drove the car over 120 miles yesterday and it runs perfectly-smooth, good power, AC running cold, and there was barely any oil in the aircleaner box-I am going to try to find time today to remove the front struts and install new strut bearings (struts new, bearings not, 'pop' noise when one wheel goes up before another)-I am not going to do any removal of evap or egr stuff since i 'ain't gonna fix what ain't broke'.

I am going to hang onto the old cat just in case I have to weld it up again-(what is an old CC worth, anyway?)

Thanks for everyone's help, sniping is over, I hope-the whole idea is a forum so that we help each other hang on to some of the only cars produced in the eighties and early ninetys that were quick, economical and fun to drive-when these are right, they are equal or better than anything built today, and deserve to be saved-this forum, for me, makes that possible. Thank You.

[22dodge]

rats, I was hoping to give you like $30 plus shipping costs.

[Sittn86]

They're worth quite a bit... They contain platinum.