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Engine - General, Exhaust & Induction Topics about the general engine items, exhaust system discussed here & Improving the intake tract - air filter to intake valve.

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Old 12-11-2009, 02:54 PM   #46
Re: Valves stuck open after PT lifters and Pope Shims  
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Originally Posted by turbospirit View Post
Problem with new 2.2/2.5 lifters is the price. Its double that of the PT's.

There is no doubt that the PT's are better then the originals, that why they were designed. But I wouldn't consider them a performance "mod"(Boy do I hate that word), as much as a supporting item. Plus they DO perform much better then the stockers at high RPM, its noticeable right away.

Half price and better...thats why they are so appealing.

I completely agree with 99% of what you said. Except the engine management part. Properly setup you wont loose ANY driveability or functionality, most case the car will be more pleasant to drive in all situation. Keyword being properly. MS is close, but still not quite "there" for me yet, although it is by FAR the best deal. FAST is just WAY to expensive for what you get.

But then again flashable SMEC's are just so convenient, cheap, available(for now) and user friendly.


BTW does anyone remember the Mopar Performance High RPM Lifters for the 2.2/2.5? Mopar thought the stockers weren't good enough at high RPM's as well. But they are NS1.
I remember those MP HLA's ... people that had problems with the stockers seemed to have issues with these too. I think this was oil pressure related. Other makers have "high performance adjusters" that are designed to bleed down in lower rpm. When you're running a big cam this was supposed to tame it down @ IDLE. I'm thinking the Mopar adjusters had the same mentality but if you had doggy oil pressure higher rpm performance wasn't happening.
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:14 PM   #47
Re: Valves stuck open after PT lifters and Pope Shims  
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I have a neighbor who adjusts his automatic lash adjusters in his Chevy small block by rotating the engine until the base circle is on the lash adjuster, then threading the rocker nut down until the play in the pushrod is gone, and then turn the nut half a turn. Is this right? It doesn't sound right to me, but I can't say I know the proper procedure. If its right, its right, but fear of how they work make him want to go with solid lifters. He's also been breaking valve springs, and instead of doing some calculations on installed height and cam lift, rocker ratio, etc, he'd rather switch it out with some kind of old school setup that "don't go bad."

Your neighbor is using an old trick to preload the adjuster. On a push rod engine you can adjust lash by turning the adjuster and locking it down. By preloading the lifter he figures the followers will show all the cams lift to the valves .... after guesstimated lifter bleed down. Problems with this sort of thing is if the valve float they can stay open for a while and bend some push rods and/or valves. In my mind it isn't worth the 1-2 HP increase. One wrong move in the higher rpm and the engine is trashed. Some guys see an improvement with heavier oil too. Depends on what he's tried.

Another issue is valve spring pressure. If that isn't right you'll have problems. Thing with HLA's is that the valvetrain needs to be set-up right in order to perform like it's supposed to. Too much spring pressure and the HLA can't pump up ... too little and you risk lofting a valve. I think the key is the right spring pressure with the lightest parts you can afford. ... and honestly, a HLA that could be modified to limit pump up and bleed down internally. Just leave the valvetrain with a small window of "cushion".

Don't have a PT in my hands but I'm thinking that the plunger throw is shorter than the stock adjusters. Since Rob did the R&R on this maybe he'd comment. This would explain quite a bit as to the perceived performance advantage.

Also ... saw mention of a fellas running 10K rpm with these and no issues. heh, anybody looking to push past 7500 rpm should be running solids in my mind. There's just too much going on in the valvetrain at that level to take chances.
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:44 PM   #48
Re: Valves stuck open after PT lifters and Pope Shims  
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with a V8 and adjustible rockers and hydraulic lash adjusters you run 1/2 turbo on the base circle on say a Chevy and with ridged roller rockers on any engine you run base circle and a 1/4 turn. This gets you away from lifter float, but not spring float.

Glad to see there is a lot of commen sense on this forum. Un like the rice forum that bases every thing off opinion of about 3 people. First off the valve train weight is hugely important, HUGE. The Comp Beehives require 30% less spring rate than a normal spring out right. Then the steel retainer weighs less than the Ti stock size retainer. Then 85% of the spring weight is moving on a double spring with dampener, vs 80% with a Beehive that is also a single spring without a dampener. How can this not be seen from the space shuttle as better?

The PTs have the design changed in a few spots. As I said before your stock lifter has the oil enter real low on the lifter, leaving a big upper gap for air to get trapped. The PT lifter has the oil hole near the top, almost scary how high they have it. So all oil is going to enter and leave where air is going to want to go. The plunger and spring and so on is basically the same, the old Neon lifter and the 2.2 lifters used the same guts. I have always been pissy with Mopar as to why we can't have the new design for the 2.2 out right...

Then price comes in, no brainer

then comes up the high RPM S60 lifters. These I haven't taken appart so I have to go off the Mopar description. They don't use engine oil,,,,,,, They are a sealed unit so they must be basically a pressure shock absorber. Why don't they use engine oil? Because the crap is filled with air!!!!! LMAO, and Mopar knows it.

interchange. This has been an issue. All cars older than the PT like the breeze and any 2.0 DOHC engine all came with the old design. I called them PTs because if it has a PT it has the right lifter. A 2.4 DOHC Stratus or Neon isn't going to have them in older junk yard rigs. Truth be known the followers are better in the PT as well, I would run the lifters and the followers in a 2.0 DOHC Neon.

As far as RPM range. If you have the big turbo, big F4 cam, big shorter runner big plenum intake on you 2.2 with a big valve head. Best plan for 7,500 RPM. Now that many don't listen to old folks barking that the 1 piece is as good as a 2 piece in a race car. The world of flow has changed, the RPM range rules have changed. Shadow is the first to really show up and not be called a liar, that's how long we've been in the dark.

Today with our really high 1.89 rocker ratio, windage air filling oil systems, better roller cams and stock cheap followers. We all need to do as much as we can for RPM use when building a 8v now. Reducing weight on the follower and reducing the spring pressure. Then having a lifter that keeps the follower planted so it doesn't slap on the lobe. It is all about making the followers live at 7,000 RPM now, then rest of the parts are out there.
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Old 12-21-2009, 02:44 PM   #49
Re: Valves stuck open after PT lifters and Pope Shims  
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to cap my part of the story off, The lifters went in with their 2 shims and I tried to fire it up and it wouldnt go but it had the compression back. ignition timing was off, fixed that it cranked, 3 times and fired up and sounds like a derby car since the whole exhaust pipe is an 8in piece that comes off the turbo at this point.

Thanks SO MUCH for all the input here guys, ended up being a confusion problem and not really anything mechanically wrong at all. havent had it on the road yet and since the exhaust is so loud I cant speak for the quietness or feel of the set up just yet.
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