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Engine - General, Exhaust & Induction Topics about the general engine items, exhaust system discussed here & Improving the intake tract - air filter to intake valve.

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Old 12-07-2011, 08:14 PM   #1
equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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90 daytona 2.5 es

i have the "super 70" (for lack of a better title) hybrid turbo from FWDperformance, they dont sell it anymore, it was the smallest they had in 2007.

i want to make an equal length tubular header which does not require me to move the starter or move/rotate the turbo.

looking at the engine compartment, i will probably have to redesign the power steering pump bracket.

one of the most difficult challenges appears to be getting the #4 cylinder primary out, there is only one realistic path, and thats in the tiny space surrounded by the compressor housing, starter, and big collector pipe coming out of turbo flange.

there IS enough space (see pictures and video) for a 1.5" OD 16 gauge pipe to make it through, but it comes about 3/16" away from the starter with fabric type heat shield, and about a half inch away from the compressor housing.

after it escapes from there, you end up hitting the coolant drain elbow from the turbo center housing. i believe this can be resolved by using a low profile adapter or coming up with something other than a 3/8" npt to -6 adapter and then a huge elbow, which is what i have now.

as far as the rest of the header design, i believe there is room for the 4 primaries to nose dive towards the ground , then making a u-turn and coming up into a collector which then goes to the turbo flange

tubing selections:

primaries: 1.5" OD 16 gauge mild steel. I have found 1.5" OD, 1.5" centerline radius steel donuts (link below). that is ridiculously tight and could not be made on a mandrel bender. thats what will be used for the tightest turns. for the more reasonable turns, 1.5" OD with larger CLR's can be commonly found many places.

1.5" OD, 1.5" CLR steel donut: PRO-WERKS C76-560 MILD STEEL DONUT - 1.5 $46.95 BUY ONLINE

the big pipe i have chosen is 2 3/8" OD, 3" CLR 18 gauge. this will go to the turbo from the collector. i got it from headers by ed. small changes in OD and CLR make a BIG difference here. a 2.5" OD, 4" CLR pipe will be more than an INCH closer (actually, it wont fit) to the exhaust flange than a 2 3/8" OD, 3" CLR pipe. The 2/3" pipe has a circumference that is about a half inch less than the perimeter of the turbo flange.

Both flanges came from FWD performance and are 1/2" thick.

The video shows my #4 primary attempt.

The pictures are side-by-side 3D. Kinda stare/cross your eyes until the 3D pops out. You may need to shrink them to be about 4" by 2" tall, or you can just look at one of them and not try to see them in 3D.

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Old 12-08-2011, 01:16 AM   #2
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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Just make sure you rotate the center secton of the turbo (if needed) so the oil feed is directly up top, and the oil drain at bottom. It is a gravity drain system, otherwise you will build oil pressure in the turbo and it will appear to be blown, as the oil will be blown past the shaft seals.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:18 AM   #3
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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Just make sure you rotate the center secton of the turbo (if needed) so the oil feed is directly up top, and the oil drain at bottom. It is a gravity drain system, otherwise you will build oil pressure in the turbo and it will appear to be blown, as the oil will be blown past the shaft seals.
My goal is to not rotate it at all and leave it stock, which drains almost straight down, just like the stock turbo.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:37 PM   #4
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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Man, that's going to be a lot of work to make it equil length! Are you going to go mandrel 3" exhaust off the turbo and get rid of the crappy stock style S/V while your at it?

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out, Good luck!
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:24 PM   #5
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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Man, that's going to be a lot of work to make it equil length! Are you going to go mandrel 3" exhaust off the turbo and get rid of the crappy stock style S/V while your at it?

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out, Good luck!
Its got a 3" mandrel straight through exhaust i.e. no cat "when racing only" tee hee, and straight through magnaflow muffler. I think I have a 2.5" SV (been so long dont remember what I bought), but it hooks up to the 3" downpipe. Id like to get a 3" SV, maybe when I'm done.

I've been trying to form the 2 3/8 OD pipe into the turbo flange hole. My first time forming metal with a small oxy-mapp torch from sears. The metal is much more bendable when hot, but no way could i heat it all up at once. I think i need to make custom pliers with curved pieces of metal that match the radiuses in the corners of the flange opening to quickly be able to properly and easily bend the corners into the flange when its red hot.
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:31 PM   #6
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2.25", 2.5", or 3" the stock style SV is a limiting factor Shadow is trying to say because the air exiting the turbo has to make a hard turn to get to the exhaust. By having something like his style SV or an ATP piece you greatly increase the flow through the turbo.
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:52 PM   #7
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2.25", 2.5", or 3" the stock style SV is a limiting factor Shadow is trying to say because the air exiting the turbo has to make a hard turn to get to the exhaust. By having something like his style SV or an ATP piece you greatly increase the flow through the turbo.
Oh I seeeeee...I should definitely have an opportunity here to change the SV..once I get the primaries to their minimum initial "escape" location, I'll see where I stand with space and what might be done...
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:55 PM   #8
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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could someone help me figure out the lowest-profile way to get the coolant drain line on the center section of the turbo out? I've only got about 1.25" of space before it hits the #4 primary.

I have seen swivel 3/8 NPT to -6 tubing adapters, which *might* work, but if that doesn't I think I'm SOL without something else...

what about a 3/8 NPT to compression fitting and a custom bent tube?
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:05 PM   #9
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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the coolant flows out of the back of the block, up through the turbo and into the head FYI.
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Old 12-08-2011, 11:11 PM   #10
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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the coolant flows out of the back of the block, up through the turbo and into the head FYI.
oh reeeely...thanks

the compression fittings seem nice because they are all metal, can handle huge pressures, and let me custom bend the tubing to go where i need, plus they are pretty low profile. i'm worried about vibration though. the turbo and the block are technically connected via the header, but i would imagine there would still be SOME vibration, which might break the compression seal..anyone have experience with this?
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Old 12-09-2011, 04:16 AM   #11
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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FWIW - garret's website says that ideal placement of the water outlet from the turbo center Is higher than the Inlet, but not greater than 20.
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Old 12-09-2011, 10:24 AM   #12
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Our vendors like FWD performance have been selling steel lines for these turbos for as long as one can remember, never had a problem with leakage due to vibration.

Having said that, your def going to Brace that header.....right?
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Old 12-09-2011, 06:08 PM   #13
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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Our vendors like FWD performance have been selling steel lines for these turbos for as long as one can remember, never had a problem with leakage due to vibration.

Having said that, your def going to Brace that header.....right?
i've ordered a 3/8" NPT male swivel to -6AN adapter for $15 from summit. hopefully that works and I can just lengthen or maybe even use the existing hose that came with the turbo kit.

yeah i guess you are right about the steel lines, ive been using those too no problems, those are flared though and not compression type, which is more reliable apparently. ill just keep using that style.

i figured bracing it would make sense, im not sure how to do it yet though or where i will be able to fit the brace....by the time i get to that i will be almost done! hopefully!
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Old 12-10-2011, 04:45 PM   #14
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If the flange is going to be very close to where it already is stock, I would run a brace to the turbo or flange area and down to the same loction on the block the factory uses.
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:10 PM   #15
Re: equal length tubular header IN PROGRESS  
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here come the #4 and #3 primaries!

I should be able to finish them off with some straight and a 90. they will be cut to merge and form a collector. it might not be as bad as it sounds.

this is starting to look POSSIBLE...

to be specific, the challenges and solutions i'm aware of:

GOAL: Equal length (within 2") tubular header that keeps the turbo in exactly the same position and does not require any movement or modification of anything.

Issues:

PROBLEM: Starter solenoid clearance to #4 primary and collector pipe coming out of turbo flange
SOLUTION: Able to clear starter solenoid on LARGE starter (bosch) by about 3/8". Enough space to fit thermotec blanket. May be desireable to cut off 1/4" of solenoid to battery terminal so that terminal can be re/installed with header in place, which shouldnt be a big deal as the post is much longer than required to begin with.

PROBLEM: Very tiny space for collector pipe to connect to turbo flange (going into turbo).
SOLUTION: A 2 3/8" OD, 3" CLR pipe cut at an angle (off radius, cross section becomes oval) fits with enough clearance to clear head flange, block, and nearby head flange stud no problem.

PROBLEM: Power steering pump and bracket are very close to #1 port.
SOLUTION: They are close, but there is enough room for a 1.5"OD 2.5"CLR pipe to make it out without coming close

PROBLEM: General lack of space in this area:
SOLUTION: Its very tight, but it simply does look like there may be enough. The #4 and #3 primaries appear to be good to go. The #1 should make a soft turn and a straight shot. The #2 will kind of follow the #3 up and come back down. I'm using the space between the intake manifold and the firewall.

PROBLEM: **NOT SOLVED** Turbo center section coolant supply port is only an inch above #4 primary.
SOLUTION: No solution yet. Moving the primary doesnt appear to be an option. Its a 3/8" NPT thread, so banjo bolts are not an option. May have to weld a custom swivel fitting up or somehow use an inverted flange fitting with a sharply bent tube.






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2.2 turbo, dodge daytona es, equal length header, header, super 70

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