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Engine - General, Exhaust & Induction Topics about the general engine items, exhaust system discussed here & Improving the intake tract - air filter to intake valve.

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Old 11-30-2012, 07:11 PM   #1
pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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im building a g-head with +2mm valves, and Id like to use an F4 or R2 cam..

if I get a new grind F4 or R2, will pt lifters, shims, and mp springs take care of the valve train and Im done? Or are those not the right parts, or do I also need other things?
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:40 PM   #2
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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the key is "new cam", not a beat on regrind. Then yes that works.

MP 813 springs are pretty weak though, look here http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/...-beehives.html

So MP springs are either too stiff or too soft. If you run a cheap spring consider the Crane springs from FWDperformance.

BTW I would get the lifters / shims from ED here and the cam and the Cranes from FWD if you don't go beehive. I'd also go with the F4.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:05 PM   #3
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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the key is "new cam", not a beat on regrind. Then yes that works.

MP 813 springs are pretty weak though, look here http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/...-beehives.html

So MP springs are either too stiff or too soft. If you run a cheap spring consider the Crane springs from FWDperformance.

BTW I would get the lifters / shims from ED here and the cam and the Cranes from FWD if you don't go beehive. I'd also go with the F4.
Ed and I were working a deal but I decided not to get the lifters because its $160 more for a new billet...so I guess I will get a regrind. Is it going to snap on me? What happens bad with the regrinds?
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:15 PM   #4
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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well roller cams break without being reground lol. Then air gets into the lifters and they squish at high RPM where the cam works best.

Neither happens every time though, some people have a good setup and don't have problems.

I am not a fan of regrinds, high lift mainly. The follower pushings side ways on the guides with a high lift regrind, causes the valves and guides to ware faster. Mopar sold extra long followers for high lift cams to keep them from slipping off, which I haven't heard of with a roller. But I'd still worry about pushing on the edge of the valve tips. Another issue is the really high rocker ratio, but beehives were designed for that and high RPM.

It all comes down to how much you are spending. Doing an econo garage build then O well. Spending $1000+ on your head and other porting, don't get cheap on the last $160 and risk nuking your top end. Or pay more for a cam and not know your actually openning the valves....

Machine shops tear down junk cores from bone yards. Then toss everything into a pile and clean it. Then large cans filled with hundreds of cams goes off on a truck to a cam grinder for regrinds. They are beat worse on the way to the grinder than how they are treated after a grind job. There is a reason why the cores are so cheap lol. Now lets say that you have a really nice cam that hasn't giving you any trouble and has really nice lobes on it still. Sticking that brittle roller cam into a nice box with bubble wrap and sending that exact cam to be reground is different. And I have done that with Delta. But a core off the shelf? They get tossed in a 6' x 6' x 6' steel box then sent off. No thanks.

This BTW has nothing to say again by who you buy it from, it has to do where the core came from. So it isn't like Cindy tosses them 20' accross a room trying to hit a shelf lol. Has nothing to do with how they are treated after grinding again. It is the treatment of bulk cores, which is horrid. 1 guy in a machine shops rips apart over 50 engines a day getting minimum wage and tosses the stuff for cleaning. OK fine with a cast iron old V8, much of that survives lol. 2.2? It is hard on a cam just unbolting the cam wrong leaving the middle for last and can fracture a cam. I've personally watched a 2.2 get ripped down for cleaning in under 10 minutes.....

A brand new blank is held gently like a new born baby and packaged nicely into a soft box made to keep the blank nice. Then shipped off to be ground, then treated nicely as it is shelved and sent off to the new owner. Next to the computer tune running your engine the cam is the #2 most important piece to having your engine run right...
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:28 PM   #5
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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well roller cams break without being reground lol. Then air gets into the lifters and they squish at high RPM where the cam works best.

Neither happens every time though, some people have a good setup and don't have problems.

I am not a fan of regrinds, high lift mainly. The follower pushings side ways on the guides with a high lift regrind, causes the valves and guides to ware faster. Mopar sold extra long followers for high lift cams to keep them from slipping off, which I haven't heard of with a roller. But I'd still worry about pushing on the edge of the valve tips. Another issue is the really high rocker ratio, but beehives were designed for that and high RPM.

It all comes down to how much you are spending. Doing an econo garage build then O well. Spending $1000+ on your head and other porting, don't get cheap on the last $160 and risk nuking your top end. Or pay more for a cam and not know your actually openning the valves....

Machine shops tear down junk cores from bone yards. Then toss everything into a pile and clean it. Then large cans filled with hundreds of cams goes off on a truck to a cam grinder for regrinds. They are beat worse on the way to the grinder than how they are treated after a grind job. There is a reason why the cores are so cheap lol. Now lets say that you have a really nice cam that hasn't giving you any trouble and has really nice lobes on it still. Sticking that brittle roller cam into a nice box with bubble wrap and sending that exact cam to be reground is different. And I have done that with Delta. But a core off the shelf? They get tossed in a 6' x 6' x 6' steel box then sent off. No thanks.

This BTW has nothing to say again by who you buy it from, it has to do where the core came from. So it isn't like Cindy tosses them 20' accross a room trying to hit a shelf lol. Has nothing to do with how they are treated after grinding again. It is the treatment of bulk cores, which is horrid. 1 guy in a machine shops rips apart over 50 engines a day getting minimum wage and tosses the stuff for cleaning. OK fine with a cast iron old V8, much of that survives lol. 2.2? It is hard on a cam just unbolting the cam wrong leaving the middle for last and can fracture a cam. I've personally watched a 2.2 get ripped down for cleaning in under 10 minutes.....

A brand new blank is held gently like a new born baby and packaged nicely into a soft box made to keep the blank nice. Then shipped off to be ground, then treated nicely as it is shelved and sent off to the new owner. Next to the computer tune running your engine the cam is the #2 most important piece to having your engine run right...
Entertaining as usual Pope...:)

Am I right that shadow ran the F4 with only spring upgrades and no changes to the stock lifters? Why are better lifters needed for a higher lift cam, if the stock rev limiter will be kept?

I got a good deal from Ed on +2mm valves and seats, and since Im in no hurry, Im going to try to build a big valve g head with high lift cam as cheaply as possible..so far I've spent:

$67 on head
$40 on pressure test and surfacing
$80 on four +2mm exhaust valves and oversize seats

So $187 so far.

So I still need:

-four +2mm intake valves $116
-four +2mm intake valve seats $40
-F4 regrind cam $239
-crane valve springs $59
-installation of oversize valve seats $80
-standard valve job $99
-s/h for the above parts $15

So another $650..which will end up being $837..thats pretty good right? Id spend $1000 for just a ported head from the vendors with no cam, but Ill do the porting myself (basic G port).

And if I can get more deals on the remaining parts that would be good.

But Im not sure if I need the lifters or retainers or other stuff..do I need the lifters because at high lift the stock lifters fill with air?
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:38 PM   #6
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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is there anything wrong with running a TBI cam in his setup
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:20 AM   #7
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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you might want to consider going with Delta for the regrind, they only charge $125 for a regrind that requires welding lobes. also you end up with a non-reduced base circle cam so you can still run PT's and not have any lash issues. the Pope has used them before without issues, and they can grind any cam profile you want. watch the vids on thier site, they know what they are doing..
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:23 AM   #8
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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you might want to consider going with Delta for the regrind, they only charge $125 for a regrind that requires welding lobes. also you end up with a non-reduced base circle cam so you can still run PT's and not have any lash issues. the Pope has used them before without issues, and they can grind any cam profile you want. watch the vids on thier site, they know what they are doing..
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That sounds awesome! But where do I come up with specs?
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:35 AM   #9
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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Some people have had problems with lifter clacking due to oil airation. The PT lifters have a bleed hole that lets the air escape keeping the lifter/lifters from collapsing.

Shadow and many others have never had this problen so don't think PT's are necessary. However, for people who have experienced this problem PT's are a lifesaver.

I have run into this problem with MP high RPM lifters on my Super 60 Omni but in my case I found Quaker State oil keeps them quiet. As I have my head off I'm going to try some PT lifters when I put it back together. My Super 60 cam still looks like new after about 14 years running.

Thanks
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:01 PM   #10
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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is there anything wrong with running a TBI cam in his setup
The biggest reason Shadows setup works with a cam is the intake and exhaust / turbo. He has nearly no pressure differental to speak of and his intake has a big plenum and shorter bigger runners that piles boost on the intake valve. The best conditions to use a big cam, he caan no doubt go bigger than the F4. The Crane springs I would bet are a quality coil and have a tad more pressure than listed. Then even though you lose lift, you still see the RPM and gain from more duration, the same reason the TBI it noticed.

In this case I would wonder, is your conditions the same as Shadow's?

I see you have a header and a smaller turbo, which will help a lot. But what I also see is something that will murder the cams flow and the heads flow, a 1 piece intake. Unless cut up and rewelded bigger, shorter and smoother the 1 piece murders flow. It can't be "ported" to change anything either, it has to be cut up. Then 2 piece how ever really responds to porting.

So from the photo's I've seen, I would run the better valve train for now with a TBI and play with advancing it 4 degree's. Not run the F4 yet. Once you get a better intake, then get the bigger cam. Even then I would look at the F2 without that bigger turbo. Kind of like building a V8 where you size everything for the same RPM level. A T3 turbo is a lower RPM turbo, the 1 piece is an off idle intake. So a stock cam will work in the right power range of the parts. A bigger turbo and a plenum intake will be a top end and mid range setup, needing a good mid range to top end cam, Shadow's setup. People with our intakes over time have been paranoid of cams. Based off RPM design Shadow's cam is conservitive in his setup but in the range. In this case with this setup we see in your tube header thread, your engine doesn't run in high RPM. So a bigger cam should hurt power at different RPM levels.

Keep in mind that a stock G head actually out flows the 1 piece and the 1 piece ported still hinders a stock G head pretty bad. So adding porting or valves doesn't increase flow much. The exhaust flow on the exhaust is cleaning out the cylinders though better. So you'll see some gain there, but the intake has to go to at least a completely ported 2 piece to use the new head. Or start cutting, which in your case is the best route.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:14 PM   #11
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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The biggest reason Shadows setup works with a cam is the intake and exhaust / turbo. He has nearly no pressure differental to speak of and his intake has a big plenum and shorter bigger runners that piles boost on the intake valve. The best conditions to use a big cam, he caan no doubt go bigger than the F4. The Crane springs I would bet are a quality coil and have a tad more pressure than listed. Then even though you lose lift, you still see the RPM and gain from more duration, the same reason the TBI it noticed.

In this case I would wonder, is your conditions the same as Shadow's?

I see you have a header and a smaller turbo, which will help a lot. But what I also see is something that will murder the cams flow and the heads flow, a 1 piece intake. Unless cut up and rewelded bigger, shorter and smoother the 1 piece murders flow. It can't be "ported" to change anything either, it has to be cut up. Then 2 piece how ever really responds to porting.

So from the photo's I've seen, I would run the better valve train for now with a TBI and play with advancing it 4 degree's. Not run the F4 yet. Once you get a better intake, then get the bigger cam. Even then I would look at the F2 without that bigger turbo. Kind of like building a V8 where you size everything for the same RPM level. A T3 turbo is a lower RPM turbo, the 1 piece is an off idle intake. So a stock cam will work in the right power range of the parts. A bigger turbo and a plenum intake will be a top end and mid range setup, needing a good mid range to top end cam, Shadow's setup. People with our intakes over time have been paranoid of cams. Based off RPM design Shadow's cam is conservitive in his setup but in the range. In this case with this setup we see in your tube header thread, your engine doesn't run in high RPM. So a bigger cam should hurt power at different RPM levels.

Keep in mind that a stock G head actually out flows the 1 piece and the 1 piece ported still hinders a stock G head pretty bad. So adding porting or valves doesn't increase flow much. The exhaust flow on the exhaust is cleaning out the cylinders though better. So you'll see some gain there, but the intake has to go to at least a completely ported 2 piece to use the new head. Or start cutting, which in your case is the best route.
Thanks! (you were talking about me right?)

Im not planning on doing the cam/big valve until I also have the custom intake manifold and bigger throttle body ready..its going to be all at once, muhahahhahahahah
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:44 PM   #12
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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other than sectioning 2 intakes for a larger runner (Shadow) this crazyeye TD members cut up is my favorite. Maybe easiest. Cut down to the V in the runners, then port and polish it all. Then weld a back side on and add a new neck. The 3.3 V6 neck also works but needs porting like the rest of it. This way you can add to the whole runner and the shape at the end if a funnel shape. Then this cut leaves it almost stock looking. Boostgeek also did a cut up 1 piece as well. But his basically doesn't have any runner and a HUGE cam. He also runs beehives and PTs with a .550" lift roller cam at 7,000 RPM too lol. Can't ever say he was too conservitive some place lol, even runs a 12cm Holset and everyone else runs a 9cm. You need enough runner to direct the air into the intake, not sure boostgeeks intake does that. His design is radically different than what else is out there though lol.

Doing a 2 piece plenum setup is great for those without the ability to cut and weld and fab. In your case you should be able to get through an intake. If your really good try Shadow's runner mod lol.
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Old 12-01-2012, 01:52 PM   #13
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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That sounds awesome! But where do I come up with specs?
they have done slider only before, I haven't tried for a roller in a while.

One popular cam that works great is the Ford cam. I had them add a .450" lift to a 85 2.2 turbo slider profile for the 2.3 Ford. Really helps lol. In truth our cams aren't that small, the Ford uses a .300" lift range cam in a stock turbo....

With a good flowing setup or a log I use the Delta 412 cam, basically a MP 767 cam made for carbs.

Sliders are more stable and better, but without a lot of ZDDP in the oil today they don't last long.

They also make a wonderful .450" lift TBI Shelby Dakota cam, mmmm. Add the Edelbrock performer and the 360 TBI and take to some one about raising the rev limiter lol. But that is off track
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:11 PM   #14
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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it was off track by the 2nd sentence
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:00 PM   #15
Re: pt lifters + shims + mp springs = F4/R2 cam?  
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it was off track by the 2nd sentence
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