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Engine - General, Exhaust & Induction Topics about the general engine items, exhaust system discussed here & Improving the intake tract - air filter to intake valve.

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Old 08-13-2005, 11:07 AM   #1
tuliped valves???  
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What are tuliped valves??? What does it take to turn a normal valve into one???

Long story short, engine shop srewed me, They claimed that because I had the timing set at 16 degrees base for the first 350 miles (they reset it to 12 which worked for the last 4500 miles) that that caused the valves to overheat. The head is not warped (made by future head designs, stock 782 head with stock cam, head heat button did not pop, no discoloration on the valves or the head at all). Engine has been bored .30 over and still has the honing marks pistons look great, stock injectors, T2 garret 465133 2x model, computer by fwdperformance stage 3, stock ignition, 2.5in exhaust to a spintech muffler (no CAT), no bov. Engine lost compression at 5500 miles . Cylinder compression test as follows

#1 81
#2 81
#3 81
#4 62

Appreciate any pictures of tuliped valves and ways you can tell or measure if they are. Also any insight into redoing this motor would be great (this time I'm doin it myself and it will be the first time for an engine over 1 cylinder)

Thanks Again Guys, feel free to email me as well at-->stratocruiser@mchsi.com or you can call me at 319-533-2032

Aaron

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Old 08-13-2005, 11:33 AM   #2
 
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They probably ran N/A valves in your engine. 16 deg would shatter your pistons, not burn your valves.

Too figure out tulip valves, its easy. Look at a normal valve, no pretend its in the head and now pretend your pulling it up using the top of the valve-the rocker side. Now as you pull, the valve will curl away, this what your valves will look like. BTW, this should only happen to your exhaust valves.

You say your valves look fine, have you taken them out?

Too check for leakage, pull the head which it sounds like you have. Take off the intake, exhuast manifolds and camshaft. Lay the head so the ports are facing straight up. Fill the ports with brake cleaner, water, whatever, if the fluid pores out of the valves in the chamber, your valves are done and the head need repairing. If no fluild leaks out, 1000-1 bet your pistons are broken from detonation. The stage 3 probably has a more timing than stock-you can ask her, plus the 16 initial will kill pistons mega fast.
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Old 08-14-2005, 03:48 AM   #3
 
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Tulip valves are thicker in the stem and get thicker as they approach the seat of the valve. Like the flower. Most modern valves keep a consistent diameter stem and flair out at the valve head. some heads flow better with them, some don't. Our stock valves are more tulip shapped than say, stock neon valves are. They used n/a exhaust valves. guys run 20 psi of boost and more on stock valves and don't have that happen. Sounds like they are trying to get out of honoring warranty work. Are they saying tulip valves are causing the problem?? If so, they are wayyy full of it. It only has an effect on flow.
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Old 08-14-2005, 03:50 AM   #4
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre' Parker
Tulip valves are thicker in the stem and get thicker as they approach the seat of the valve. Like the flower. Most modern valves keep a consistent diameter stem and flair out at the valve head. some heads flow better with them, some don't. Our stock valves are more tulip shapped than say, stock neon valves are. They used n/a exhaust valves. guys run 20 psi of boost and more on stock valves and don't have that happen. Sounds like they are trying to get out of honoring warranty work. Are they saying tulip valves are causing the problem?? If so, they are wayyy full of it. It only has an effect on flow.
I know what your saying but he means the valves have got so warm, they tuliped where they seat so to speak, Like pulling roses thru a straw, if you get my drift.
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Old 08-14-2005, 04:03 AM   #5
 
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Then in that case, they are full of it BIG time. There is no way the valve deformed like that. Not all 4. For it to get that hot, the motor would have overheated and blew a head gasket. 4 degrees aint going to heat is up that much. Take it to another shop to see what they say and don't tell them what happened. Get a written estimate and take them to court. Do you need a set of good used "turbo" exhaust valves?? Give me your address and I'll send you 4 for free. that really pisses me off trying to shaft someone like that. What's the name of the shop?
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Old 08-14-2005, 04:05 AM   #6
 
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Yeah, I agree, thats why I wondered if he had taken it apart yet?
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Old 08-14-2005, 10:09 AM   #7
 
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Thanks guys,
Yes the head is off the engine and is in the back of my van ready to be taken to other builders for estimates. The head still has both the turbo + exhaust manifold and intake manifold still attached. I had 2 guys look at it so far, the first one works out of his own garage and does everything himself. He mic-ed the dimple in the exhaust valves of which the all mic-ed out to be the same depth. The second guy builds racing imports (mazda or something) He rotated the cam a couple of cranks and said that the valves are in great shape except that they are all canted slightly thereby not making a tight fit, He said this would occur by either the manufacturer drilling the holes wrong or D&R engines doing this at their shop after getting it from the manufacturer.
Now I know that D&R said they did alittle bit of head work to this after receiving it.
Get this all 8 valves are canted in the same direction. The other kicker is that he used hyperutectic thermal coated pistons for this engine and then tried blaming me that I didn't want to spend the extra cash for the malley's or the wisco's (D&R).

Thanks
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Old 08-14-2005, 03:45 PM   #8
 
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Sounds like you have 4 ashtrays. :(
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Old 08-14-2005, 11:38 PM   #9
 
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I cannot say i've seen or heard of valves deforming from getting too hot. They either crack, burn, and/or loose chunks of themselves. 16 degrees base timing isn't the greatest for our engines, but the result would be detonation.

What has me itching is how EVEN the compression is. Sure the timing belt didn't jump? What are the pistons like? It would be obvious if they have holes in them.

The chance of ruining pistons and valves in such a way and end up with even compression readings like that is very slim. Something else happened. Usually you'll get somethin like 100, 40, 75, 20 when serious internal damage like that happens. Hence the reason I suspect valve timing.
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Old 08-15-2005, 08:09 PM   #10
 
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I'm going to go with the 4 ashtrays, My 91 had hypers in it when I bought it and I had 0, 75, 90, 90 compression. Pulled the pistons and they all had cracks between the ringlands and one had a hole burnt in it.

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Old 08-22-2005, 10:58 AM   #11
 
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Looking at the pistons from just the top (as they aren't pulled out of the motor yet) they look good. The motor is just going to have to be rebuilt. Wisco's, a simple honing since the hone marks are still present on the walls, new head from indiana (complete, ready to run for $200 includes cam, everything ) Any ideas for a blow off valve? and since I'm rebuilding this thing, what needs to be changed or added to the engine to be able to run upwords of 20-25psi of boost? ( moving to upstate NY this winter and would like to run watkins glen with this car).


Thanks

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Old 09-06-2005, 03:54 PM   #12
 
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Nobody has any ideas to my last reply?
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Old 09-06-2005, 06:54 PM   #13
 
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Look on Gary D's web site. It shows step by step to modify a 1st gen Eclipse bov. You could get an aftermarket one, but they can cost quite a bit. It's a good part for cheap and easy to modify.
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Old 09-08-2005, 05:48 PM   #14
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanman85
new head from indiana (complete, ready to run for $200 includes cam, everything )
Make sure that the new cylinder head says "TS" on the #4 cylinder side, indicating that it is a turbo head with turbo valve's, Just something to think/look out for.
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Old 09-13-2005, 02:31 AM   #15
 
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Thats awsome! some machine shops are just plain scam artists. I have seen some crazy Sh-t but never a tuliped TD valve. There's only a couple times I have seen that in Blown alcohol engines running 8,000 rpms with spring pressures in excess of 350 -400 pounds on the seat that ran super lean at 45 psi. The other instance would be a prostock engine that hits the 10'000 rpm range with in excess of 500 # on the seat and nearly 1'000 pounds of open pressure with over 1.00" of lift. Get some pictures of that so we can see it. If you think about it we only run a stock turbo spring at about 120 pounds on the seat, then you have to push up on a follower wich would push up on the cam...so how would it tulip that much no matter how hot it got to make little or no cylinder pressure? Sounds fishy to me...

-Mike
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