TU Cast Iron Header

[herman]

Forgive a noob but could someone please provide a link to explain a couple of things:

1.Why is Turbosunleashed banned? Did someone get bad parts of something?

2. What is the "other site"? Its not for porn is it?

If you can't post the links you can PM me or whatever. I just want to be in the loop here.

[tryingbe]

Nope, can't even PM you. PM me your e-mail address and I'll send them to you.

I'm risk being ban by TD just by saying I'd give them to you in public.
Something about "driving TD members away"...

[crazymadbastard]

sorry noob can't talk about that! You will be missed tryingbe ...(tounge in cheeck)

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti Are you talking about the new cast piece? I have seen pictures on the other site and its a lot more then "a little" gasket matching. A full 1/4" to be removed from 3 sides of the flange is just sloppy. Its not going to help your turbine flow after all that porting either. We are talking about massive amounts of porting unless you do a crappy job and just round off the edges instead of tapering the gasket matching into the turbine like you should. I dont agree that fancy exhaust manifolds are for people with lots of mods. I would want to upgrade my manifold regardless of my HP goals. But thats how I roll.

I have TUs cast header. The header has zero inside turn on it and the largest cut is on the inside turn. So you cut a radius in the turbine and make the inside turn with the turbine. The other 3 sides are cut an 1/8" deep into the turbine 2", which raises your AR ratio a tiny bit. Without porting the turbine right the air will shoot across the edge and slam into the side of the turbine. Not a bolt on and use piece and not for some one that isn't doing a lot of other mods and porting.

The header flows the CFM of the big valve heads, the ported manifold barely out runs a stock 655. The other issue is uneven pressure at all of the ports. This causes the combustion temps to change between cylinders. The #4 coolent mod ring a bell? The #4 cylinder flows nearly 40% more than the 1-2 cylinders on a ported stocker. My GLHS is being built to run on a road course not a drag strip. I bet Shadow hits the 500 WHP mark with the ported stocker and a Holset in a street / strip car.

The best header by a long shot is FWD tube header, there is no comparison. It even clocks the turbo a bit to clear your heater lines, which TU made tight for us. It is also a 4 into 2 into 1 Y design and will fight reversion as well as flowing huge. So if you want a tube header there design is great. But tube headers on street cars or track cars die quikly because tube turbo headers melt, period. Running a hybrid the TU header works well to move the turbo from behind the head and remove the nasty 90s. It helps with my water to air setup. Whats laughable is people bolting a T3 to them, way too much BS for that small of a turbo. Let alone not using it. Then I've seen people with a factory intake using it. It is a big valve, hybrid or bigger, and big plenum built intake header. I have all of that and using the F4 cam. So I agree that many should be putting there money else where long before the header helps.

[detobias]

^ nice informative post by the Pope, as usual. Thanks !

[Reaper1]

Rob, I understand and agree with what you've said about tubular turbo headers...to a point. I agree that if they are made out of thin walled, or inferior materials, that yes, they will eventually fail. However, if they are made out of the propper material(stainless or inconel being the best...thick walled even better), then ceramic coated I beleive that you can have your cake and eat it too. I would highly suggest propper bracing be used, but I beleive it is possible to do it. I may be mistaken, but aren't most of the WRC factory cars using some sort of tubular header for their turbos? Given those are so overengineered that they aren't something you'd typically see on a street car, butI'm just using it as an example. As for FWD's, I don't know how it would hold up in the long run as only 2 were ever built IIRC(unless something new has come along)...

Anyways, just curious to your thoughts on that...?

[JamesL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper1 Rob, I understand and agree with what you've said about tubular turbo headers...to a point. I agree that if they are made out of thin walled, or inferior materials, that yes, they will eventually fail. However, if they are made out of the propper material(stainless or inconel being the best...thick walled even better), then ceramic coated I beleive that you can have your cake and eat it too. I would highly suggest propper bracing be used, but I beleive it is possible to do it. I may be mistaken, but aren't most of the WRC factory cars using some sort of tubular header for their turbos? Given those are so overengineered that they aren't something you'd typically see on a street car, butI'm just using it as an example. As for FWD's, I don't know how it would hold up in the long run as only 2 were ever built IIRC(unless something new has come along)... Anyways, just curious to your thoughts on that...?

Actually, there were 5 made. I still have the one I'm going to put on my race car one day. They are made of schedule 40 carbon steel pipe. It is a bit heavy so a brace would be required. As they are all hand made, they are very expensive to produce. We still have all the jigs and we are working with a supplier to have more made. The pricing still isn't where it needs to be for this community and I don't want 20 of these things sitting on my shelf.

[The Pope]

SS grade and higher grade SS and coatings means they last longer, but the time frame is still there. Race cars, WRC or drag racing and so on it just doesn't matter. They use the most expensive matterials and throw trash cans full of cash at there race cars. Then they don't get the mileage a street car gets. Nelson racing engines claims there $5,000 SS SBC headers will melt, even coated. Even the people that make big buck headers tell you it is when, not if they'll melt.

I am also talking tube headers, not stove pipe joints welded together into a log header. So I guess it comes down to whether or not you want to trust a welded header on the street. Can you afford to build a header that cost over $2,000 for the best matterials, and the right man that knows how to weld those matterials. On a race car there is a ton of heat, but in a street car there is a ton of heat cycles that can cause damage.

This debate is much like the aluminum rod debate. You run forged steel rods and cast headers, you can go on for 30 years and be OK. Then you hear people with tube headers and aluminum rods that say the stuff works great on there toy with low miles. I plan to beat the snot out the car, I think they all get driven like I just stole them. "If" and "when" are two words I would like not to describe the engine lol.

There is only 1 that I know of with FWDs header, he is out here in the PNW and bought a GT turbo to bolt on it. They are rare and don't cost anything like the big buck SS headers that live longer. How many $2,000 + headers would get sold? Any? LOL

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesL Actually, there were 5 made. I still have the one I'm going to put on my race car one day. They are made of schedule 40 carbon steel pipe. It is a bit heavy so a brace would be required. As they are all hand made, they are very expensive to produce. We still have all the jigs and we are working with a supplier to have more made. The pricing still isn't where it needs to be for this community and I don't want 20 of these things sitting on my shelf.

Any more than one on the self is too many for stocking price. Sweet header though. I also had been looking at that one again reading Shadows post about the Holset on an 8v. Your header clocks the turbo a bit, I am wondering if it would let a Holset fit on my wagon better

Sooo a 400 SS class matterial and the welder would make it cost how much ? I think more are going to make a race car as they learn to make the power. More and more power and more racing as people step up. I think more actual race cars will be getting built and need more race parts. For me the wagon needs the pelquin posi and I want to bracket race again, kids are old enough where I can go plan again.......

[Reaper1]

Sorry for the missinformation James. I only remembered 2 being built. I too am curious as to what the cost would be for one? When you guys stopped production I thought that was it, and there was no possible way to get any more. As much as the log manifold does work, I'm still not convinced it is the best solution. I'm interested to see what Rob's flow numbers come out to be. I'm MORE interested to see how the balance between the ports are. This is the area I don't beleive the log is that great in. I know a few people(Rob may be one of them) thta has spent considerable time trying to balance out the flow between the ports on both the stocker and aftermarket peices.

Rob, thanks for your insight. I see where you're coming from. Fatigue is an area I'm a noob to. Although I DO think of it, I suppose sometimes I don't think in long enough time frames. that will more than likely change by the end of the fall semester...materials and structures are two of the classes I'm taking. I'm REALLY interested in my other two...aerodynamics and experimental aero! I get to use the wind tunnels!!! YAY!!!

[Ondonti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope I have TUs cast header. The header has zero inside turn on it and the largest cut is on the inside turn. So you cut a radius in the turbine and make the inside turn with the turbine. The other 3 sides are cut an 1/8" deep into the turbine 2", which raises your AR ratio a tiny bit. Without porting the turbine right the air will shoot across the edge and slam into the side of the turbine. Not a bolt on and use piece and not for some one that isn't doing a lot of other mods and porting. The header flows the CFM of the big valve heads, the ported manifold barely out runs a stock 655. The other issue is uneven pressure at all of the ports. This causes the combustion temps to change between cylinders. The #4 coolent mod ring a bell? The #4 cylinder flows nearly 40% more than the 1-2 cylinders on a ported stocker. My GLHS is being built to run on a road course not a drag strip. I bet Shadow hits the 500 WHP mark with the ported stocker and a Holset in a street / strip car. The best header by a long shot is FWD tube header, there is no comparison. It even clocks the turbo a bit to clear your heater lines, which TU made tight for us. It is also a 4 into 2 into 1 Y design and will fight reversion as well as flowing huge. So if you want a tube header there design is great. But tube headers on street cars or track cars die quikly because tube turbo headers melt, period. Running a hybrid the TU header works well to move the turbo from behind the head and remove the nasty 90s. It helps with my water to air setup. Whats laughable is people bolting a T3 to them, way too much BS for that small of a turbo. Let alone not using it. Then I've seen people with a factory intake using it. It is a big valve, hybrid or bigger, and big plenum built intake header. I have all of that and using the F4 cam. So I agree that many should be putting there money else where long before the header helps.

Does that look like 1/8" to anyone?
I think not.



And you are still wrong about manifolds. Whether or not something is a lot of work has nothing to do with it being a good idea unless someone doesnt want to do the work.

I would put a good manifold on a stock turbo car simply for the fun of it. Just like I would build or buy an intake manifold. Put cams in. Even if it was a stock turbo.
I could care less of the gains are small. I drive 3.0's and I am used to doing a lot of work for a small gains, and huge work for large gains.

Too many people are addicted to running high of boost and low brains.

[Ondonti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reaper1 Rob, I understand and agree with what you've said about tubular turbo headers...to a point. I agree that if they are made out of thin walled, or inferior materials, that yes, they will eventually fail. However, if they are made out of the propper material(stainless or inconel being the best...thick walled even better), then ceramic coated I beleive that you can have your cake and eat it too. I would highly suggest propper bracing be used, but I beleive it is possible to do it. I may be mistaken, but aren't most of the WRC factory cars using some sort of tubular header for their turbos? Given those are so overengineered that they aren't something you'd typically see on a street car, butI'm just using it as an example. As for FWD's, I don't know how it would hold up in the long run as only 2 were ever built IIRC(unless something new has come along)... Anyways, just curious to your thoughts on that...?

Rob is just generalizing too much.

There are a lot of Tubular manifolds out there what will go 100,000 miles and more without failure. They are well made and strong by themselves or properly braced to make up for anything lacking.

You dont need cast manifolds to be reliable. Cast manifolds are what you do when you want to mass produce something.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti I would put a good manifold on a stock turbo car simply for the fun of it. Just like I would build or buy an intake manifold. Put cams in. Even if it was a stock turbo. I could care less of the gains are small. I drive 3.0's and I am used to doing a lot of work for a small gains, and huge work for large gains. Too many people are addicted to running high of boost and low brains.

For many years I've built muscle cars, which makes up the longest bulk of knowledge going back the farthest. In 1990 I started drag racing a Shelby Charger, but rarely, the 440 72' Challenger I built for drag racing was so much faster. Tube headers I have had a ton of experiance with. They melt and leak and the welds break on NA cars that aren't holding up a turbo and that aren't getting the prolonged heat of compressed exhaust. Building a V8 NA you learn real fast that the combo is what makes power, that ballence of air flow through the engine. Turbo or 3.0 engines are no different, they both have manifolds made to flow the stock numbers. In most cases headers are an easy way out, and you can use a little head work. Many over time have added big cams to engines with stock intakes. In all cases including the TDs this hurts power. Bolting a stock 440 intake to an Indy head 500 CID engine that is running CNC ports and .600" lift cam is retarded. Yet how many people spend $1,500 here on a big valve head and bolt on a 1 piece?

That measurement on three sides doesn't change, about an 1/8" for 2" deep into the manifold. Then like mentioned before look at the left side where it is about 1/4" cut. This is where you will make a radius that the header doesn't have. Nothing changed.

Clowns running high boost without brains, I hear ya. One guy years ago stripped down a daytona to about 2,600 and ran 30 PSI and ran 106 MPH through the traps. Same dude made 345 WHP he claimed and ran 10.41 with a Reliant, a 1,900 lb reliant with all the weight shifted forward for racing. Then he thought a great way to test how water to air works is throw some plates on a stock Daytona IC and run water through it instead of air. Then when it failed to do any good, he condemmed water to air ICs, even though he wasn't really running one.

In just the last couple years have people come out of the dark ages with TDs. Running 30 + PSI and keeping everything stock is how every other compact group is faster. The 8v engine is no excuse, it has been the thinking around here. Keep in mind instead of listening to guys running 10s with low HP maybe people should be listening to guys running low 9's with Ford 8v's and with street cars. As you can tell I really agree with the no brains and massive boost. But thankfully TD hasn't had those people here, they got there own forum now.

Want to try a header? Not a bad idea. Too much bad experiances may have hurt my look at them, like being gun shy lol. When we open up the engines to flow right, more head flow and a bigger cam. We need the better flowing manifolds, period. This is where things like an S60 cam and FWDs F5 they have talked little of come into play. For years I've talked about pressure at the head, not the intake and the exhaust. The reason is the intakes don't keep pressure on the intake valve because they lack flow, the distance is too far and the plenum is too small. As we now have some corectly made turbo cams and headers only are we lacking on the intake. But when you bring the whole engine up in flow, like a v8 you can run a bigger cam. The best header can use the best cam. FWDs header with an F5. I am running the F4 because of the TU header that can't do the job as well.

[tryingbe]

On other news, TU header is on sale right now. Get yours before the sale goes away.

[vader85]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti Does that look like 1/8" to anyone? I think not. And you are still wrong about manifolds. Whether or not something is a lot of work has nothing to do with it being a good idea unless someone doesnt want to do the work. I would put a good manifold on a stock turbo car simply for the fun of it. Just like I would build or buy an intake manifold. Put cams in. Even if it was a stock turbo. I could care less of the gains are small. I drive 3.0's and I am used to doing a lot of work for a small gains, and huge work for large gains. Too many people are addicted to running high of boost and low brains.

That looks more like 1/4" of material you need to remove. No biggie! So you don't think That exhaust manifold is better than the ported Oem's?