TU Cast Iron Header

[Ondonti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader85 That looks more like 1/4" of material you need to remove. No biggie! So you don't think That exhaust manifold is better than the ported Oem's?

I dont remember saying that. I do remember saying that is a poor casting job. It makes the manifold a "non bolt on"

I woldnt pay for an upgraded log manifold though. Its still a log and regardless of flow numbers, it hurts performance. If flow meant everything then I could pretend logs were a decent idea though.

Ported stocker or tubular is the only route I would go.

[vader85]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope I have TUs cast header. The header has zero inside turn on it and the largest cut is on the inside turn. So you cut a radius in the turbine and make the inside turn with the turbine. The other 3 sides are cut an 1/8" deep into the turbine 2", which raises your AR ratio a tiny bit. Without porting the turbine right the air will shoot across the edge and slam into the side of the turbine. Not a bolt on and use piece and not for some one that isn't doing a lot of other mods and porting. The header flows the CFM of the big valve heads, the ported manifold barely out runs a stock 655. The other issue is uneven pressure at all of the ports. This causes the combustion temps to change between cylinders. The #4 coolent mod ring a bell? The #4 cylinder flows nearly 40% more than the 1-2 cylinders on a ported stocker. My GLHS is being built to run on a road course not a drag strip. I bet Shadow hits the 500 WHP mark with the ported stocker and a Holset in a street / strip car. The best header by a long shot is FWD tube header, there is no comparison. It even clocks the turbo a bit to clear your heater lines, which TU made tight for us. It is also a 4 into 2 into 1 Y design and will fight reversion as well as flowing huge. So if you want a tube header there design is great. But tube headers on street cars or track cars die quikly because tube turbo headers melt, period. Running a hybrid the TU header works well to move the turbo from behind the head and remove the nasty 90s. It helps with my water to air setup. Whats laughable is people bolting a T3 to them, way too much BS for that small of a turbo. Let alone not using it. Then I've seen people with a factory intake using it. It is a big valve, hybrid or bigger, and big plenum built intake header. I have all of that and using the F4 cam. So I agree that many should be putting there money else where long before the header helps.

Sorry but I have no idea what an F4 cam is! No one here believes in FM 475 cam?

[vader85]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti I dont remember saying that. I do remember saying that is a poor casting job. It makes the manifold a "non bolt on" I woldnt pay for an upgraded log manifold though. Its still a log and regardless of flow numbers, it hurts performance. If flow meant everything then I could pretend logs were a decent idea though. Ported stocker or tubular is the only route I would go.

Please don't put words in my mouth...I was asking you a question for your opinion....

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader85 That looks more like 1/4" of material you need to remove. No biggie! So you don't think That exhaust manifold is better than the ported Oem's?

the material is removed 2 ways. Where it is the "big cut" is easy because you just make a smal radius there. The top and bottom is a real cut that goes into the turbine, so you need to blend them and it is a little harder but not bad. I like it better than the OEM,,,, for a hybrid.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by vader85 Sorry but I have no idea what an F4 cam is! No one here believes in FM 475 cam?

because of todays oil no body I think likes sliders anymore. The cam may still or used to have a larger base circle that crushed the lifter, so it can't fall down. Which in many cases with rebuilt heads left the valves open and no compression

I actually like the 505, but I like sliders for racing. F4 is a raging street strip high RPM cam, should break everything to use it

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti I dont remember saying that. I do remember saying that is a poor casting job. It makes the manifold a "non bolt on" I woldnt pay for an upgraded log manifold though. Its still a log and regardless of flow numbers, it hurts performance. If flow meant everything then I could pretend logs were a decent idea though. Ported stocker or tubular is the only route I would go.

Tube rules for power and the ported stocker will hit 500 WHP I think this year.

There is a difference between a stock log and the TU. The TU has 4 times the volume in cross section. The stocker also has diferent flow on each runner and the flow into the log section is restrictive. So volume is better and fill time is slower, which helps with getting more of the same volume moved. This means each cylinder will make closer to the same power. It could be worth 100 HP over a ported stocker at 600 HP. Small hybrids and T3s don't need it. I bought it for placement and not running 90s on the compressor outlet.

Tube header is an ugly way to describe a race header. Many on here think of a stove pipe welded log header is a tube header....... My self I don't consider those tube headers. 4 into 1 and 4 into 2 into 1 Y headers I call tube headers I hope FWD gets that unit down closer to $500 so us poor folk can have one

[90vntShadow]

Sounds like a lot of TU bashing and crying about a little porting. Why would you design a header and restrict it down to match up to the stock small opening on the turbine housing? I have had no issues with Chris and I think he is a great guy, he is always very kind to me and has even invited me over to his shop. I ordered the TU cast header with the thermal coating a few weeks ago. He had one on the shelf when I stopped at his shop and it is coated and ready for pickup. I also ordered one of his heads, I dropped off my NOS head for him to port, bigger valves, springs etc and it is also ready for pickup. My custom built GT30 also ready for pickup, the only thing I am waiting on is the 3" swing valve. He told me he was getting ready to run his last batch and that would be a few more weeks. He stuck to his word and everything was ready
in 2 weeks as promised, except the swing valve which he told me would be a while.
Just speaking from personal experience, I think Chris is a great guy always willing to help. If a little porting scares anybody then maybe you should stick with stock.

[Ondonti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90vntShadow Sounds like a lot of TU bashing and crying about a little porting. Why would you design a header and restrict it down to match up to the stock small opening on the turbine housing? I have had no issues with Chris and I think he is a great guy, he is always very kind to me and has even invited me over to his shop. I ordered the TU cast header with the thermal coating a few weeks ago. He had one on the shelf when I stopped at his shop and it is coated and ready for pickup. I also ordered one of his heads, I dropped off my NOS head for him to port, bigger valves, springs etc and it is also ready for pickup. My custom built GT30 also ready for pickup, the only thing I am waiting on is the 3" swing valve. He told me he was getting ready to run his last batch and that would be a few more weeks. He stuck to his word and everything was ready in 2 weeks as promised, except the swing valve which he told me would be a while. Just speaking from personal experience, I think Chris is a great guy always willing to help. If a little porting scares anybody then maybe you should stick with stock.

You are assuming the stock Chrysler flange is restrictive.

There is no proof of that.

Because of that, your argument falls apart.

Pope and I both know the reason why it needs porting...is because they are trying to create volume without moving the turbo too far. Its hard to fit a "good" log manifold in that small space. That is a lot of porting. Nobody said the porting causes something bad. Nobody said it is a "bad" manifold design. Do i think the manifold is something I would buy if I built a 2.2/2.5....no. Ported stockers run the gambit of 100 to 450hp (and I agree 500 will happen) and a 600+hp car is not the type of car that needs to worry about longevity of parts (because there is no such thing as longevity on a 600hp 2.x liter engine). If you put a lot of miles on your 600hp FWD car, you might want to consider a different car for driving because that makes no sense. You cant use 600fwhp on the street. Put a ported stocker and run 300-450hp on your street car (which is still excessive hp for the tires available).

Pope and I might disagree on whether we think the volume increase is needed. I would tend to say that improving flowpaths and balance is the most important thing when improving a log header. I think that can be done without increasing volume so much, but it would be more difficult to create. That is why I say there is sloppyness in the design. Overdoing something because you dont really know what the exact requirement is. Something i often do myself.



And considering I build my own stuff, I will just ignore your dig about being afraid to port.
You are also ignoring that many of us in this thread have interacted with Chris before and our experiences good and bad are valid regardless of your own experiences. Your good experience doesnt make someone elses experience good and vice versa.

[Miss89baron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope because of todays oil no body I think likes sliders anymore. The cam may still or used to have a larger base circle that crushed the lifter, so it can't fall down. Which in many cases with rebuilt heads left the valves open and no compression I actually like the 505, but I like sliders for racing. F4 is a raging street strip high RPM cam, should break everything to use it

Is it worth an extra $160 for a billet F4 or just go with an 89 roller regrind? I have the 475 now and I like it, but just heard to many stories and the friction at idle and driving is much higher according to Donavan. Just hate to eat the $400 I spent for a 475 and followers with 2000 miles on it. Anyone out there run a 475 slider then switch to F3 or F4 roller as only change and see a diff on highly modified TD.

[The Pope]

to say it, the TU header needs a mold revision. They need a smaller inside mold and then add a hump on the inside turn to give it one. The head side on mine was tilted, the port holes. So my header needed match porting at the head to straighten them out. I don't agree they need it that far over to clear anything, move back 2 inches and your still out from behind the head. Lastly I would have tilted the mounting location to move the compressor away from the firewall to help clearance. A little revision down the road wouldn't be bad. I hope FWD makes a real cast intake, yeah cast is cheap but I just want a 200 CFM 8v intake runner lol

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss89baron Is it worth an extra $160 for a billet F4 or just go with an 89 roller regrind? I have the 475 now and I like it, but just heard to many stories and the friction at idle and driving is much higher according to Donavan. Just hate to eat the $400 I spent for a 475 and followers with 2000 miles on it. Anyone out there run a 475 slider then switch to F3 or F4 roller as only change and see a diff on highly modified TD.

Saddly it is a matter of when, not if the 475 will chew up. A sad truth these days. I have performance slider cams make at best 40,000 miles. I've seen rollers break in half too and have heard nightmares about bent cams from the local cam builder here. A F4 roller won't ware and it is a cam that will last if new. Then your back to price, yes the billet cost more but it is brand new. Even a brand new F cam cost less than a new Neon cam..

You mentioned you run a basically stock intake with the origanal plenum. It may be a good idea to run a roller stock cam or TBI. F cams bring up the cost and your setup asks for a F2 cam. So run it till the valve train is real noisy and dump the cam if you want.

[90vntShadow]

[quote=
You are also ignoring that many of us in this thread have interacted with Chris before and our experiences good and bad are valid regardless of your own experiences. Your good experience doesnt make someone elses experience good and vice versa.[/QUOTE]

Like I said. "Just speaking from personal experience"
Chris has done a lot for this community and that is a fact.

[speeduphoria]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope Even a brand new F cam cost less than a new Neon cam.

I dont know how you figure that, Crane cams are new billet and SOHC neon cams are $260 and the F4 is $240 +$25 core for a regrind, then $160 more for a New billet cam. You can get New billet DOHC Cranes for that price.

Thats not even the cheapest place just the 1st place I looked
Modern Performance Racing Products

[Ondonti]

A lot of complaining about a few dollars leads to not much progress. The fact is that most of us here including myself buy or make things that were a waste of money, and then we complain about the price of a known good product. That doesn't really make sense if we look at our history of mistakes and wasted money.

[Miss89baron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope Saddly it is a matter of when, not if the 475 will chew up. A sad truth these days. I have performance slider cams make at best 40,000 miles. I've seen rollers break in half too and have heard nightmares about bent cams from the local cam builder here. A F4 roller won't ware and it is a cam that will last if new. Then your back to price, yes the billet cost more but it is brand new. Even a brand new F cam cost less than a new Neon cam.. You mentioned you run a basically stock intake with the origanal plenum. It may be a good idea to run a roller stock cam or TBI. F cams bring up the cost and your setup asks for a F2 cam. So run it till the valve train is real noisy and dump the cam if you want.

My build parts are listed below, spent some cash since a mechanic did all the installs and professional machine shop for the head work and bottom end. I'll see how she blows when done. Your suggestions point towards an F4, 58mmTB, 72lb inj. and maybe .63 AR. See anything other missing or suggested upgrades.

255LPH Walbro fuel pump
Cometic .051 Headgasket
Adjutsable Cam sprocket and round tooth timing belt
11mm ARP Headbolts
Manual Turbox Boost controller stage 1
Magnacor Ignition Wires
Spark Plug, NGK GR5 set at .032 gap 4 / Blaster 2 Coil
Front / Side engine mount MP
Transmission cooler
Turbo 2 radiator / 3000 cfm Black Tornado Fan
E2 T2 Turbo To4E 46 trim with Stage 2 turbine wheel (.48 ARturbine housing)
Wastegate actuator H/P Turbo 2
2 1/2 swingvalve (turbo outlet)
Turbo Oil Lines T1/T2, drain, feed, coolant 0
Shift kitted valve body
Aluminum Underdrive Pulley 89-91
New A/C Belt
New PS Belt
475 Slider Cam
2.5 slider cam follower
89 T2 Billet Fuel Rail
Cam Seal
FM Super 60, 2.5 computer
3 bar map sensor
T2 wastegate solenoid
+40 injector set
52mm TB
charge temp. sensor
3” Cold Air Intake / KN Filter
High Stall Torque Converter
KYB Shocks / Struts
17” Wheels & Hancock tires
3” Turbo back Exhaust / 3” 750 cfm Metal Cat
Sealed Battery in trunk
Removed balance shafts
Cast Exhaust Header TU
Ported / Polished Intake 2 Piece
Full Ported 782 head
MP performance springs / moly retainers
2.5” 750 cfm Performance Intercooler
BOV RFL-H
Shelby strut tower bar
Clevite 77 main and rod bearings
Reconditioned T2 Forge Rods
Stock size 2.5 Venolia Forge Pistons
EGT Gage