TU Cast Iron Header

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by speeduphoria I dont know how you figure that, Crane cams are new billet and SOHC neon cams are $260 and the F4 is $240 +$25 core for a regrind, then $160 more for a New billet cam. You can get New billet DOHC Cranes for that price. Thats not even the cheapest place just the 1st place I looked Modern Performance Racing Products

Last I looked it was at mopar cams and cams for DOHC. The crane is cheaper, I guess I don't pay attention to SOHC costs. But I don't know why people build that engine but yeah I suppose if you did build a SOHC for some reason it would be cheaper.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss89baron My build parts are listed below, spent some cash since a mechanic did all the installs and professional machine shop for the head work and bottom end. I'll see how she blows when done. Your suggestions point towards an F4, 58mmTB, 72lb inj. and maybe .63 AR. See anything other missing or suggested upgrades. Ported / Polished Intake 2 Piece

performance cam?

actually the wrong thread for talking cams. But this is a big one. The neck of your intake can't use a 58mm TB and the size of plenum doesn't need it to fill right. Lastly your runners are too long to need a 58 as well. I know we have talked about this before. It isn't a good idea to use a 6,500 RPM cam with a 5,000 RPM intake. The cam and the intake go hand in hand with dictating RPM level, TB also has something to do with it. The cam really starts working about the time the intakes stops. On a high RPM race engine, where your at 6,000 RPM the whole time then sweet. But you have told me a street engine. For this you need to finish the build and get a 4" plenum form one of 3 sources. When you miss match parts and there RPM ranges, it causes the power band to be a peak. That means your average real power range will be very narrow. This is ugly and causes many cars to run slower than they should. When all of the parts runs in the same RPM range you have a long broad power band, and you go faster with less peak power.

It is like you bought a 500 CID Indy head long block with a big cam and a 1050 Domintaor and your trying to shove a Edelbrock performer motorhome intake between the 2. Your going to make power between where one drops off and the other comes in. Which on a race car running one basic RPM is fine. On your street car it is going to suck. You've spent a lot of money at this point, do you want it to work or do you want it to work right By your list add the plenum and the F4 or keep the 475 and the intake the way it is and consider an F2. I think that is the choices here, err, the cam thread

[Miss89baron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope performance cam? actually the wrong thread for talking cams. But this is a big one. The neck of your intake can't use a 58mm TB and the size of plenum doesn't need it to fill right. Lastly your runners are too long to need a 58 as well. I know we have talked about this before. It isn't a good idea to use a 6,500 RPM cam with a 5,000 RPM intake. The cam and the intake go hand in hand with dictating RPM level, TB also has something to do with it. The cam really starts working about the time the intakes stops. On a high RPM race engine, where your at 6,000 RPM the whole time then sweet. But you have told me a street engine. For this you need to finish the build and get a 4" plenum form one of 3 sources. When you miss match parts and there RPM ranges, it causes the power band to be a peak. That means your average real power range will be very narrow. This is ugly and causes many cars to run slower than they should. When all of the parts runs in the same RPM range you have a long broad power band, and you go faster with less peak power. It is like you bought a 500 CID Indy head long block with a big cam and a 1050 Domintaor and your trying to shove a Edelbrock performer motorhome intake between the 2. Your going to make power between where one drops off and the other comes in. Which on a race car running one basic RPM is fine. On your street car it is going to suck. You've spent a lot of money at this point, do you want it to work or do you want it to work right By your list add the plenum and the F4 or keep the 475 and the intake the way it is and consider an F2. I think that is the choices here, err, the cam thread

Your consistent with the plenum as the middle of the hour glass. Is there a 4" plenum that matches up to the 2-piece runners with a 58mm neck. What's the best out there now?

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss89baron Your consistent with the plenum as the middle of the hour glass. Is there a 4" plenum that matches up to the 2-piece runners with a 58mm neck. What's the best out there now?

I am bias. The one me and GLHNSLHT2 made together is CNC cut and uses the material thickness to create a velocity stack. The 58mm TB fits on mine next to FWDs fuel rail like it grew there. Another I've seen has the AIS groove cut in it for some reason and is cut long ways to make the mounting holes. The CID displacement is right at 2.5L on ours. Another good place to go is LWP a vendor here, Shadow says they made his 4" plenum that works great. A large problem me and GLH have is the tube cost is real high, but other than that he has programs to do 52mm TBs and 58s. Then he found a good welder. I will take some pictures of mine tomarrow and post them in the intake section, taking my 3 boys to the movies tonight. Porting a 655 head and finishing it for a guy here I sold it to, finish porting GLHs lower piece, and starting on a pair of stage 6 aluminum Mopar heads for a customer. So I can clean it and take pictures, needs a power balling

[amelnikov]

I just got the TU piece for my CSX project. Had it coated too. It's going on a 2.5 with Ed Peter's ported swirl head and one of his special cams and other goodies. I was going to use it with one of his 80mm turbo's but when I had Turbonetics freshen it up, they stole it and kept it and gave me instead a hybrid with to4E 50 trim cold side and t3 hot side, which I'm pairing with .63 housing. Only thing that I still have to make/get a proper intake for this combo. Saw this thread going and it's quiet interesting. Seems some people do not think that this manifold will make more power the a ported stocker or did I read something wrong here?

Alex...

[The Pope]

untill the engine is making so much power that the ported stocker holds you back, a header doesn't help in HP. However, peak numbers are not the whole story though, a header that flows what the exhaust flows will get the exhaust to the turbine much stronger and quiker. VE has a lot to do with boost level and spool up. Will it make a lot of power? By itself not much I bet. Will spool a turbo faster and spool a bigger turbo better on the street? I have no douts that it will. Years ago on the FMML Gary D dyno'd Relentless the way it ran 10s. It took a long time before he would post the numbers and when he did it was about 350 WHP. Which in a full race car with weight moved and 1,900 lbs that he claimed is fine. But he said the TBI header really helped the car. Now you see guys today making 100 more WHP with a ported stocker, with a better setup. It think it is a good example of how a header can turn a bigger turbo so you can reach a higher number. Or so you can have a better power curve on the street with a bigger turbo. Not just a way to make more peak power. Now a T3 already spools really fast, the idea of using this with a T3 is a waste of money. I spooled my old 89 turbo so hard the tires broke loose in 3rd, stupid. You add a ported head and the TU header and 3" SV to a car with a T04E S50 and it should spool as good or better than a stock GLHS. A very broad power band and fast response but with a big turbo. But not violent that the car can't hope to hook. I took off my S60 T3 because it spooled faster than a mitsu, way too much. So I pulled it off and changed my combo and bought a bigger turbo, this was also with a ported stocker.

[Timmay2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 90vntShadow Like I said. "Just speaking from personal experience" Chris has done a lot for this community and that is a fact.

You should know by now, the majority of people here are ungrateful.


Everyone is just going to look at things and say it wont work, say it wont work as good, or say bla bla bla in general.

The TU manifold does exactly what it was designed to do. Allow you ease of turbo installation and selection and minimizing the fabrication the end user has to do.

That that have one, love em. Those that don't, bash em.

Not sure why, its a great product and one of the nicest custom TD pieces produced to date from ANY vendor.

[Timmay2]

Pope, have you swapped just the manifolds and done back to back dynos and verified this information?

It's way too easy just to say because the stocker works then another manifold wont produce more power.

Thats just about as halarious as the whole "#4 coolant mod".

[The Pope]

I thought the same things about the header BEFORE I bought it, not after. If I didn't want it for a reason I won't own it. And unless your a complete fool you wouldn't need back to back testing to see what 40 CFM more flow on 3 runners would do for spool up. I don't see why you guys NEED back to back testing on COMMEN SENSE, but hey I spend hundreds on proof so those without can see the light. Am I doing a back to back flow test? Yes I am, I need to take the valves out of the head and then if I get time this week the whole setup is going to be flowed, NOT just the TU header. I am flowing my WHOLE top end, intake and exhaust. Then flowing the whole stock setup, I already have just ported stock manifold numbers off my big valve head and stock manifold numbers as well. My ported stocker even beat a 4 into 1 tube header we tested. Then as always I will post the results. I am VERY confident that I will keep nearly all of the exhaust flow with the TU vs keeping very little with all 3 other manifolds. It is dumb to just port a head and bolt your stuff on and think it works right. EVERYONE but a few TD people flow there stuff with there manifolds. EVERYONE ELSE knows you have to. But TD people seem to think only the head needs to flow any CFM, then they blab you must run 16v heads. Wake up! A T3 engines intake flows 200 CFM folks! A 1 piece flows without a TB a wopping 144! So Everything I am doing for my own reasons to see what I did wrong with my work and what I've done right. Then if my stuff flops on the bench or if it works well, I'll post it. I was very disappointed in my ported exhaust manifold but it wasn't far from others results. But clearly from people like Shadow and others, there is a ton more power to be tapped in other places than in the header.

What are you doing for the hobby Timmay2?'

As for the #4 coolent mod. Our stats flow horrid and the water pump housing slow flow a ton. I've done a couple mods to get around this. When the #4 coolent mod started it was because the flow of water went from the #1 cylinder to the #3 cylinder and out. And this was a problem for 400 HP so they said. So why does a Neon DOHC engine with a coolent inlet at the #1 cylinder and the collent exit at the #1 cylinder not melt pistons at 800 HP? Clearly a Neon must flow coolent better huh.

People will always complain about money in this hobby, the way it is. I spend more money working with them and screwing with them than driving them. I was thinking, screw it I'm just going to bolt it all together, it's ready. I'm tired of testing I just want to drive it again. But hey, if you don't test and prove everything. That means commen sense to hard to believe things around here your a liar. Heck even if you prove it half the time your a liar around here LMAO. O well, I'll test it anyway and spend about $300 this time. Then when I'm done with the 655 setup another $150. And that doesn't include any of my time.. I think people need to stop looking at peak numbers too and look at how a mod works more. But people are really stuck that way. And not just with the header, the intake, the turbo much of the mods. Thats why I push the TU header will make my engine work better and I'm not telling people it'll make a ton more power, and that's bad mouthing it?

[speeduphoria]

Better flow numbers are not guaranteed better results in real world applications

I think you need to learn more about Gas Dynamics, specifically Isentropic Flow equations. You have to keep in mind back pressure and reversion, also expansion waves(pressure). These all come into play and a flow bench doesnt mean much. Heck DCR has done some testing with "antireversion" porting on cyl heads and made more HP on a head that flowed 30cfm less.

And to go along with Ondonti, on a log manifold stockish cams do well. You dont see many people having way better HP with larger cams because of the reversion and backpressure aspect of the log manifolds.

[Timmay2]

If you dont know how much power it makes or doesn't make, it is bad mouthing it to discredit the fact it makes more power.

I dont think it's even advertised as makign more power though, from what I understood during the r/d testing at TU it was made mostly for convenience.

With the way you post i dont even know if you support it or hate it. All I know is if you dont know the power it does or doesn't make for sure, you cant throw out wild assumptions. Pulse patterns, disruption, temperature and so much more have an effect on performance just as the CFM number does.

[The Pope]

for the most part you can make power with a log header. Do you guys believe that a long header that differs by 40 CFM or more between the different runners will work better than a log that flows the same CFM on each hole? Other than how the air works in the manifold, thats been discussed. How about the effects of the #4 hole really flowing well and a lot more air than the other 3? AF with the wideband is based off of the average of all 4 cylinders. What happens when the #4 gets a ton more air than the other 3? You end up richer on 3 and leaner on 1 cylinder, then you do a #4 coolent mod LMAO. So yeah backwash and all the other issues are in both the stock and the TU. But what if all 4 cylinders flow the same, have the same back pressure and are equalized?

[amelnikov]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope untill the engine is making so much power that the ported stocker holds you back, a header doesn't help in HP. However, peak numbers are not the whole story though, a header that flows what the exhaust flows will get the exhaust to the turbine much stronger and quiker. VE has a lot to do with boost level and spool up. Will it make a lot of power? By itself not much I bet. Will spool a turbo faster and spool a bigger turbo better on the street? I have no douts that it will. Years ago on the FMML Gary D dyno'd Relentless the way it ran 10s. It took a long time before he would post the numbers and when he did it was about 350 WHP. Which in a full race car with weight moved and 1,900 lbs that he claimed is fine. But he said the TBI header really helped the car. Now you see guys today making 100 more WHP with a ported stocker, with a better setup. It think it is a good example of how a header can turn a bigger turbo so you can reach a higher number. Or so you can have a better power curve on the street with a bigger turbo. Not just a way to make more peak power. Now a T3 already spools really fast, the idea of using this with a T3 is a waste of money. I spooled my old 89 turbo so hard the tires broke loose in 3rd, stupid. You add a ported head and the TU header and 3" SV to a car with a T04E S50 and it should spool as good or better than a stock GLHS. A very broad power band and fast response but with a big turbo. But not violent that the car can't hope to hook. I took off my S60 T3 because it spooled faster than a mitsu, way too much. So I pulled it off and changed my combo and bought a bigger turbo, this was also with a ported stocker.

You make sense when you say it's the combo that you have to strive for and that is one of the major reasons I got this manifold. I already have a good flowing head, a great cam and good flowing turbo. Another thing I'm looking for is engine that will live for a while and any restricton on the exhaust side increased chances of detonation. On my WRX on stock cast manifolds I made 260 whp. With all else same and just swapping out those cast manifolds to a tubular 4-1 header and adjusting A/F to same as before I made around 280 whp. Before the header swap I could only run so much timing due to my turbo being small and factory exaust manifolds being so restrictive. During tuning we discovered that with header in place knock resistance had improved enough that we can bump up the timing and in the end I had over 300 whp. We then tuned it to nice and safe 292 whp that I can drive on the street with and not worry about hot weather and occasional tank of bad gas. I'm going for the same thing with my combo for the CSX. I want no restrictions on the exhaust and TU log manifold is way ahead of ported stocker in this department. Now I am a realist and I know that a log manifold is a trade off when it comes to equal flow accross all ports but at the same time being it's a log and is capped off by turbo I don't see flow being all that different accross ports once it's pressurized. I would love to see someone test this and share with us how much difference there really is between ports.

Alex...

[speeduphoria]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amelnikov Another thing I'm looking for is engine that will live for a while and any restricton on the exhaust side increased chances of detonation. On my WRX on stock cast manifolds I made 260 whp. With all else same and just swapping out those cast manifolds to a tubular 4-1 header and adjusting A/F to same as before I made around 280 whp. Before the header swap I could only run so much timing due to my turbo being small and factory exaust manifolds being so restrictive. During tuning we discovered that with header in place knock resistance had improved enough that we can bump up the timing and in the end I had over 300 whp. We then tuned it to nice and safe 292 whp that I can drive on the street with and not worry about hot weather and occasional tank of bad gas.

Exactly, the detonation threshold changes with a 4-1 or 4-2-1 header, equal length or not. You have less reversion then you do with ANY log manifold. Thats why I was saying you can do many mods then using a larger cam you will have more reversion(hot air in the cyls), thats why people dont see great power increases from larger cams because most are still using a log manifold. let alone the fact that the TD motors that are tuned correctly are few and far between.

[crazymadbastard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by speeduphoria let alone the fact that the TD motors that are tuned correctly are few and far between.

HEY! I ressemble that remark!