upgraded intercooler gains?

[DakotaKid]

So if you have a head that flows 200 cfm on the intake side, then that would equate to 800 cfm with the entire engine? So in reality to use/get all the power you can, you would need an intercooler that supports AT LEAST 800 cfm, correct?

-Bryan

[4sfed4]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrboVan So if you have a head that flows 200 cfm on the intake side, then that would equate to 800 cfm with the entire engine? So in reality to use/get all the power you can, you would need an intercooler that supports AT LEAST 800 cfm, correct? -Bryan

I think just about any IC will flow 800 cfm....its just a matter of how much pressure drop will be across it!

The trick, as Gus used to point out all the time, is getting the least pressure drop with the best cooling.

[Turbofreak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRock Diesel ICs are not meant for flow, since they are operating in a very low RPM range. Look at the difference in tube sizes in those ICs you posted! You'll need three times the tubes to flow the same amount of air.

Not all diesel intercoolers are narrow tube/fin configuration... like Volvo gas intercoolers...

Some diesel intercoolers have very wide flow tubes and some are even bar/plate design...

I have 4 big diesel intercoolers... two are bar/plate, two are regular flow tube intercoolers (they are wide tubes, not like a radiator-thin...)

Hope this helps!!!
RYNO

[4sfed4]

As an example, if we use the 420 cfm = 300 hp a few posts up, the stock R/T intercooler at 300 hp was showing a 7 psi pressure drop across it when I tested it on my car.

So, at roughly 420 cfm, one would need 7 psi more pre-IC pressure than post-IC pressure to get 420 cfm of air through it. Thats alot of extra work for the turbo.

[DakotaKid]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4sfed4 As an example, if we use the 420 cfm = 300 hp a few posts up, the stock R/T intercooler at 300 hp was showing a 7 psi pressure drop across it when I tested it on my car. So, at roughly 420 cfm, one would need 7 psi more pre-IC pressure than post-IC pressure to get 420 cfm of air through it. Thats alot of extra work for the turbo.

Ah, so to see if my 46 mm throttle body is hindering performance, I can tap before and after the throttle body, right? I should see more before the TB. (I do not want to, but I would guess I would.)

[4sfed4]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrboVan Ah, so to see if my 46 mm throttle body is hindering performance, I can tap before and after the throttle body, right? I should see more before the TB. (I do not want to, but I would guess I would.)

I plan to do this very thing on my car! (Piddling minds think alike )

I will measure turbo discharge pressure (i.e. pre-IC pressure), post-IC pressure (pre throttle body) and intake manifold pressure (post throttle body).

Ideally, there should be very little difference between all three measurements. But, in reality there will be some difference. I have already measured the pre-IC and post throttle body (intake manifold) pressures and I am seeing 4-5 psi difference at high rpm I want to measure between the throttle body and the IC to see where the drop is. It is either the IC or throttle body/intake manifold.

[gdonovan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrboVan So if you have a head that flows 200 cfm on the intake side, then that would equate to 800 cfm with the entire engine? So in reality to use/get all the power you can, you would need an intercooler that supports AT LEAST 800 cfm, correct? -Bryan

No- Other factors come into play that reduce the flow number. Just bolting on the intake will reduce flow numbers by 20% or more. A flowbench is a tool that tells you what one player is doing, you need to look at the overall picture.

You want an intercooler that will support the hp number you are looking to obtain at a desirable pressure drop. Ones that *flow* more then that will really add nothing, the engine takes what it needs and no more. The key is getting a cooler that flows the air you need to support the power level you are looking for with as little pressure drop as possible AND cools as well as possible to maximise the density of the air in the intake tract.

The Reliants cooler flows like gangbusters, far more then it ever needed. The big secret was it was a huge heatsink the maximised the aircharge going into the engine with very little pressure drop.

Remember if the air has to be compressed (pressure drop) to force it's way through the cooler the compression alone is going to heat up the air, and reduce the density.

When you have a port that flows as poor as the 8V head the next best thing to making the head flow more is making the air charge denser and packing more in the same volume.

[SilverShelbyZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdonovan No- Other factors come into play that reduce the flow number. Just bolting on the intake will reduce flow numbers by 20% or more. A flowbench is a tool that tells you what one player is doing, you need to look at the overall picture.

So do you have any information on what is a typical range of flow our engines are capable of?

Quote:

The key is getting a cooler that flows the air you need to support the power level you are looking for with as little pressure drop as possible AND cools as well as possible to maximise the density of the air in the intake tract.

That makes sense, so why is it then that comapnies like Spearco don't provide thermal efficiency data on their intercoolers? Or do they and I just have never seen it? It's always interesting to see that their cooler flows 1080CFM, but if you get down to it so will a piece of 2.25" exhaust pipe. It seems like you need that thermal efficiency data in combination with the flow data to really make a judgement on how good of an intercooler it is.

[4sfed4]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverShelbyZ It seems like you need that thermal efficiency data in combination with the flow data to really make a judgement on how good of an intercooler it is.

For sure. Thats what makes it hard to really know what is going on unless you actually measure the temperature and pressure yourself.

[SilverShelbyZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrboVan So if you have a head that flows 200 cfm on the intake side, then that would equate to 800 cfm with the entire engine? So in reality to use/get all the power you can, you would need an intercooler that supports AT LEAST 800 cfm, correct? -Bryan

I'm still not sure if it's the intake number that matters or the lower number of the intake and exhaust or what. This is kind of getting out of the realm of intercoolers now, but for the sake of argument if the intake flows 200CFM stock and the exhaust flows 160CFM stock, and the maximum flow you can get out of the exhaust with porting is 180CFM (below the 200 of the intake), is there a point to porting the intake side of the head?

[4sfed4]

Keep in mind that, although the mass flow rate into the engine must match the mass flow rate out of the engine, the volumetric flow rate (cfm) doesnt.

[SilverShelbyZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4sfed4 For sure. Thats what makes it hard to really know what is going on unless you actually measure the temperature and pressure yourself.

And makes it really hard to make sure you're spending your money well when you buy one!!!

I've done some thermal efficiency testing on the Powerstroke cooler in my car using a graphing thermocouple meter I have and the results are pretty impressive, but I haven't done anything to measure pressure drop.

What's the best way to measure it anyways? One boost gauge on the hose from the turbo and one on the hose to the throttle body and go by the difference between them? When you're talking about numbers of like 1.5PSI it seems like it would be difficult to get an accurate reading that way.

[4sfed4]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverShelbyZ What's the best way to measure it anyways? One boost gauge on the hose from the turbo and one on the hose to the throttle body and go by the difference between them? When you're talking about numbers of like 1.5PSI it seems like it would be difficult to get an accurate reading that way.

Thats what I do. But, I am too cheap to use boost gauges so I went to the hardware store and bought some generic 0-100 psi gauges for like 5 bucks a piece. They are actually pretty nice (i.e. not plastic). They sell them for use on irrigation systems, but they are just standard gauges with 1/8" NPT threads on them.

To test their accuracy (if you have an air compressor), you can apply air pressure to all of the gauges at once and make sure they all read the same. I also compared mine to my boost gauge and the pressure regulator on the air tank and amazingly, they are all so close as to be considered the same. I didnt even see a 1 psi difference when applying 30 psi "simulated" boost.

So, once you know all the gauges read similarly, youll have some confidence in reading the pressure differentials. Realistically, youre only looking for realtively large drops anyway. If you saw a 1 psi drop from turbo outlet to intake manifold you are doing great and theres really nothing to worry about.

[lametec]

You can buy difference gauges, that shows you the actual difference in psi between the two inputs.

[TheRock]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverShelbyZ That makes sense, so why is it then that comapnies like Spearco don't provide thermal efficiency data on their intercoolers? Or do they and I just have never seen it?

The Turbonetics catalog has the efficiency information. Mine is MIA, or I would scan it for you.