Super 60?

[john1320]

I have a Daytona- '87 ShelbyZ. The head is ready to go back on but is waiting for a replacement turbo. I figure on upgrading since it is apart anyways.. I'm thinking possibly S60 or 70trim with large .63 housing.
In your experience, will this be effective with just headwork only?

I ask because I will not have the CAL and swingvalve until March.
Any suggestions and HP guesses? Your feedback is important, as this is alot of money for one part, but the most important.

[GLHNSLHT2]

I have an 87 Z. I spun a rod bearing on it due to the previous owners use of RTV and replaced it with a 2.5. Really like the car with a 2.5. Much easier to drive. Kept the stock turbo then nuked that. Maybe there was some RTV in it as well. So at the time the only thing I could find on the lists/forums was a new MP plus turbo with some mods to it. I bought it. Now I've got a couple more mods done to my car and realize I'm going to be driving this stock compressor wheel pretty hard. In hindsight I wish I would of bought a new S60 turbo. It would of fed my goal of 300hp pretty easily.
If you have big exhaust and a ported exhaust manny it should be only slightly more laggy than your stocker. A grainger valve also helps with lag. If your 2.2 ever dies throw in the 2.5 But I'd say a S60 turbo is a good street/strip starting off turbo. If you're looking for over 300hp then you can upgrade. But on a daily driver with some power I think it'll be a great turbo.

I have heard mixed results over the S70. I think it's too mismatched from comp to exhaust sides. It also is different from manufacturer to manufacturer so it's hard to say what your results would be. An S60 isn't much worse than a stocker and gives you room to grow still. If I were to go bigger I'd go straight for a T3/T4 or a GT turbo.

[moparzrule]

If anything the S70 is a better match to the .63 stage 1 than an S60. A ported exhaust manifold will actually INCREASE lag because you are talking away velocity, but a ported head along with that and it will compensate fine.

The real question here is what are your goals? It's pointless to go with anything more than the stock T2 if you want less than 250 WHP.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moparzrule If anything the S70 is a better match to the .63 stage 1 than an S60.

all a stage 1 is, is a tighter tolerance stock wheel, turbine hole is stock size. The S70 is a bigger wheel than a S60 and spools slower. Not to mention your done with what the housing can support with a S60 wheel. The S70 is an example of forcing a larger wheel into a small housing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moparzrule A ported exhaust manifold will actually INCREASE lag because you are talking away velocity, but a ported head along with that and it will compensate fine.

If your losing velocity with a ported exhaust manifold your not porting it right, it's just that simple and easy. I've done them for years (1990) and have them on many stock engines and they work great to REDUCE LAG. Not to mention some top end There are 2 really important places to hit the manifold to get it to work better, from your pics you hit one of them. I'll give you a clue, your not reducing backwash. The main problem with the stocker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moparzrule The real question here is what are your goals? It's pointless to go with anything more than the stock T2 if you want less than 250 WHP.

Yes and no. The compressor is rated for 140 HP stock by the compressor map. The S60 is rated for 200 HP by the map. So if your sizing them and actually using the compressor maps to do so, the S60 is perfect. In real life however the perfect map is laggy, slightly. So on a non ported T1 car, or a stock intercooled T2 car it really isn't needed yet.

The exhaust side is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! This has to do with many things but it all comes down to exhaust flow. When you reduce back pressure at the valve, overlap will make power. The reason why is the pressure differental causes less boost and fuel to enter the combustion chamber. Dropping the exhaust back pressure increases the amount of fuel and air that gets into the combustion chamber. More freash air and fuel means more power. Stock the exhausts back then murdered flow. With a stock exhaust and a poor flowing exhaust manifold the turbine has pressure on the exhaust side and poor flow on the turbine side. Both mean lag. Now today exhaust systems are allot better, of course I think anyone not running a 3" is nuts or not spending. But they flow twice as good just with a 2.5". Then even on a stock car the ported manifold builds boost faster at a lower RPM. It takes pressure off of the head and puts more on the turbine. This creates more exhaust to turn the turbine and lets more boost into the engine on the intake side. Reducing back pressure on the exhaust and it will lower the pressure in the exhaust manifold, more power. The less backpressure your exhaust has the less pressure is needed to turn the turbo (to an extent). Then when both the exhaust and the manifold are working the turbine, then you can really use a .63 housing. And I have cars out there with manifolds and exhaust work and .63 turbines that spool allot faster than stock.

"if you can't get it out don't bother putting it in" This was true 50 years ago, true 20 years ago, and true today. Our cars have a nice setup but old exhaust systems suck, baddly. Today you add 3" exhaust to an SRT 4 like my brothers and little difference. Just adding the 3" exhaust to my GLHS netted me .4 second and 4 MPH increase in the 1/4, no other changes. The stock turbo with a ported manifold and 3" exhaust hit WAY to hard, over 20 PSI at 2,000 RPM. Would blast the tires lose bad. Now with a .63 housing it still hits boost at 2,000 RPM but it is allot softer, not like a sledge hammer. This ends up giving allot more traction, the car spun 3rd gear before. The car had a 2.35- 2.65 60ft time. Now first and second are spinning but the car is hooking and moving forward. You can't imagine the traction difference a .63 makes.

[moparzrule]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope all a stage 1 is, is a tighter tolerance stock wheel, turbine hole is stock size. The S70 is a bigger wheel than a S60 and spools slower. Not to mention your done with what the housing can support with a S60 wheel. The S70 is an example of forcing a larger wheel into a small housing.

The wheel is bigger but a bigger exducer reduces lag, but the fact that it is a larger heavier wheel it kinda cancels out then. They cram 50 Trim T04E wheels in the stock housing, a super 70 is far smaller than that and just fine in the stock housing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope If your losing velocity with a ported exhaust manifold your not porting it right, it's just that simple and easy. I've done them for years (1990) and have them on many stock engines and they work great to REDUCE LAG. Not to mention some top end There are 2 really important places to hit the manifold to get it to work better, from your pics you hit one of them. I'll give you a clue, your not reducing backwash. The main problem with the stocker.

I can't believe you can tell anythign from the pics, they suck. I have since changed my technique anyway but I'm not sure what you are referring too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope Yes and no. The compressor is rated for 140 HP stock by the compressor map. The S60 is rated for 200 HP by the map. So if your sizing them and actually using the compressor maps to do so, the S60 is perfect. In real life however the perfect map is laggy, slightly. So on a non ported T1 car, or a stock intercooled T2 car it really isn't needed yet.

300 WHP has been done with the stock T2 turbo, I'd say 250 is plenty conservative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope You can't imagine the traction difference a .63 makes.

Much agreement here!

[john1320]

Just a note here- we are shooting for HP in the 280-300 window.
I don't know if this is poss or even reasonable. I do have a good head that had extensive work- heavy porting and port match, and +20 injectors in prep
for a 15psi cal form TU (old bottom end). The exaust has stock pipe with race cat and no muffler, intake just has K&N drop-in. I don't have large valves,
but I will after this summer, when the bottom gets rebuilt. After that we can cal to 18psi.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by john1320 Just a note here- we are shooting for HP in the 280-300 window. I don't know if this is poss or even reasonable. I do have a good head that had extensive work- heavy porting and port match, and +20 injectors in prep for a 15psi cal form TU (old bottom end). The exaust has stock pipe with race cat and no muffler, intake just has K&N drop-in. I don't have large valves, but I will after this summer, when the bottom gets rebuilt. After that we can cal to 18psi.

with enough porting you'll need the +20s without a custom cal. My car NEEDS +20s on a computer setup for stock injectors, static fuel pressure is 60. The car pings at 4 PSI and floored won't go over 10 PSI pinging with stock T2 injectors. I could grainger it to 16 PSI and had enough fuel, then I added the 767 MP cam and the increased air flow made ping at 15 PSI. At that point on 3 cylinders and 14 PSI of boost the T3/T2 clutch slipped at 214 WHP. Cindy was right, 250 Hp at the crank is the end of the road with that clutch. At 214 WHP the clutch slipped at 14 PSI, at 204 WHP the clutch was fine at 13 PSI. I broke ring lands before driving 1,140 miles to the tire dyno My car REALLY liked the S60 I put on, ton better traction. The stock turbo would spike 17 PSI in learn mode with a stage 2 computer. That same spike is to 20 PSI with a S60, careful

[moparzrule]

You must have got a defective clutch or something, mine held fine at 225-250 WHP levels. I haven't had a chance to check it with my most recent mods yet though, the car isn't back together yet. New mods are switching to the .63 turbine, 3'' exhuast and a dual stock IC. Before it was .48 housing, 2.5'', and stock IC.

BTW I'd just like to add that the S70 wheel is a T3 wheel and it's in a T3 cover....nothing wrong with that. I'm not postive but I do believe the grand national has a .42 A/R housing as well, but I could be wrong.

I'd like to see someone who has made 300whp on a stock T2 turbo. This *may* be possible, but only with a perfect tune and a massive intercooler from what I've seen. Don't expect more than 250whp from a stock T2 turbo. Also, the S70 wheel was intended for a significantly larger compressor housing with a 3'' inlet. If money is important and you're planning to run nitrous, keep the stock turbo until it dies, then spend the money and upgrade when the time is right. It's not difficult to swap turbos with the head on if the old turbo has been removed in the last couple years.

Clark

[john1320]

OK, so we are all agreed that traction is better with the S60, due to slower spooling? More gradual rise in boost?
I still need to know if I am being realistic in wanting over 250WHP with the 60or 70 trim and large housing..

[moparzrule]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WishIhadaSig Also, the S70 wheel was intended for a significantly larger compressor housing with a 3'' inlet.

Wrong. The S70 only has a 1.5mm larger inducer than the super 60, you probably wouldn't even be able to tell the difference of a S60 and S70 with the cover on unless you compared them side by side.
I don't know exactly what size but I can tell you the stock inlet on the buick GN turbo is not 3'', I believe it's still the same 2'' as our stock housing. The housing is not machined completely out like with a T04E wheel inside of the cover, with the S70 wheel the inlet still tapers in some.
Ken adler made 290 WHP with the stock T2 intercooler and turbo. Another person (I forget who, friend of Ken) passed 300 WHP with the stock turbo but a dual core IC.


john1320- Yes the .63 turbine is actually good for traction on the street. The stock turbo is plenty good for 250 WHP, above and beyond that you should use the S60 or 70 unless you want over 300 WHP.

[john1320]

OK, this is encouraging- although I know I'd have to finish the exaust before #s are good. I assume the limited 15lbs boost won't do me any favors to push close to 250whp? (old bottom end)

[john1320]

Hey, just found out I will be able to buy my friend's SRT-4 intercooler very soon!
Anyone tried this with mild boost like me- with better #s?

[moparzrule]

At 14-15 PSI the SRT unit will still be better than the stocker. At 15 PSI you might get 225-250 WHP with a ported head, 3'' exhaust, Super 60 or 70, SRT cooler, and ported exhaust manifold.

[john1320]

I'm stoked
One last Q..
Is TU the only place we can find good deals on the Dodge line of turbos?
I haven't found anyone else who can touch his prices