windage tray?

[phantomrt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Iroc R/T It seems to have been doing very good. He probably has 15K miles on the car with the windage tray installed and no engine problems so far. He can't seem to keep a tranny working in it, but that's a different story. Hopefully the A413 to A568 swap next month with take care of that problem.

Oh crap. I guess it is my turn to start keeping up with the Joneses again. It is finally time to up my boost pressure a bit.... heehee

[Blue Iroc R/T]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dez Did he use a different pick-up tube?

We used the oroginal tube and modified the existing 2.5 pick-up by enlarging the opening.
http://www.pbase.com/rmscott/image/38111179

Looking forward to seeing you next month, Jackson!

[Dez]

Cool, so i'm guessing the modified tube works quite well, huh?

How's the oil pressure?

[Blue Iroc R/T]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dez Cool, so i'm guessing the modified tube works quite well, huh? How's the oil pressure?

We just have the stock dash idot gage and oil pressure stays constant between the 2 center marks (as seen in this pic of my R/T dash)
http://www.pbase.com/rmscott/image/1287944

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dodge80_89 Try http://www.crank-scrapers.com/. They have a pretty nice set up, you have to remove the balance shafts. My engine builder couldn't believe I got it for the price they offer for the quality it is.

That's nice to hear.

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86Tona I know that the crank scraper helps keep oil off the rotating crank and thus helps retain what would be otherwise lost HP. But does it reduce the oiling at all? My main concern is the thrust bearing surfaces. I can't imagine it does but over thousands and thousands of miles what is the long term effect?

The thrust bearing is lubricated by the drain from the main bearing sitting right next to it. Windage tray and crank scraper have no effect on this.

Dodge uses crank scrapers and windage trays as OEM equipment on many stock engines.

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 thrust bearinng is lubricated from internal by the journal and not by just the splash or spray of oil on it if this was the case, a windage tray would also hurt the thrust bearing by not allowing oil to it. this is my first experience with a scraper but i can't think it actually make contact with the crank itself

Correct about the thrust washer. The Mitsubishi 4g63t 2nd gen had a problem with thrust bearings (totally apart from scrapers and trays). Best theory I've seen on that is that the oiling scheme for the piston squirters made the thrust washer lubrication too sensitive to dirt clogging the tiny valves and/or the springs in the valves loosing tension over the years.

The Teflon version of the (or a) scraper can safely make contact with the crank itself. Boosts the efficiency of the scraper.

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86Tona I figured that the thrust bearing would probably be just fine but what about the wrist pins. These don't get oil any way other than the 'splash' that they receive.

The wrist pins principally receive oiling from the oil scraper rings in the ring pack. Yes that is from splash oiling.

By reducing the pressure differential that forms around the crank at high rpms the splash oiling of internal components should actually increase rather than decrease with crank scrapers. That's probably why (in part) they are oem equipment.

In engines that are run with high vacuum in the crankcase (15" and above) there is some concern about wrist pin oiling among engine builders. Why? Think about it for a minute. It is independent of windage trays and crank scrapers.

With little atmosphere to create chaotic windage effects, including pumping from bay to bay, the ejected oil from rods and mains is going to follow a radial/tangential path. The area of the scraper rings supplying oil to the pins is orthogonal to this pattern (at a right angle).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86Tona I guess the mod to the rod where an 1/8" camphered hole at the top of the rod would help keep some oil in 'reserve' for the oiling of the rod/bushing to wrist pin but what about the wrist pin to piston? By reducing all the splash would these areas receive less oil?

I think I know the mod you're speaking of but there is an even simpler one that is a variation on an oem technique. You will often see slots in Mopar rod side surfaces to direct additional ejected rod bearing oil at the thrust surface of the cylinder bore. You can make a similar slot inline with the rod beam so that ejected oil is directed at the base of the piston, hence the wrist pin as well. So, better cooling for the piston and better wrist pin oiling.

Here is a pic of that mod on some old Yoshimura Superods -- guessing from about 25-30 years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86Tona After typing this I just remembered that the crank scraper is not neessarily designed for 'street' daily drivers. It is used for engines where every small HP loss is a bad thing and these prevent that loss. Perhaps they do so at the expense of causing the engine to have a somewhat shortened life due to the extra wear caused by somewhat less oil being avaiable for areas such as the wrist pins and cylinder walls.

Nope. Many Dodge enthusiasts are unaware that a crank scraper was even oem equipment on the 95 2.0 Neon engine. There was also a factory windage tray that was going to be included but was nixed to save $.

If you look at the new DaimlerChrysler engines, all (at least the ones that I saw) had a windage tray and some manner of scraper technology. That includes the World engine.

[shelbyz2342]

well, i recieved my crank scraper, and i'm sorry to say i was not impressed. it says about minor triming but it had clearence issues that needed around 1/4 or mor of metal removed in a couple of places. so it will be going back for fwd when i get time.
instead i designed a windage tray and fabricated it for far less than is wanted for one from fwd perfomance.

i really miss my big block, i bought a windage tray from mp for under $30($26 i believe).

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 well, i recieved my crank scraper, and i'm sorry to say i was not impressed. it says about minor triming but it had clearence issues that needed around 1/4 or mor of metal removed in a couple of places. so it will be going back for fwd when i get time. instead i designed a windage tray and fabricated it for far less than is wanted for one from fwd perfomance. i really miss my big block, i bought a windage tray from mp for under $30($26 i believe).

If you send me an email with your address (sales@crank-scrapers.com) I will mail you a CNC cut plastic template for whatever pattern it was and you can indicate the changes needed. I will scan it and have another cut for you.

There are numerous different swept crank profiles in the 2.2 and 2.5 engine series.

Say, a windage tray for a Toyota 4A series runs about $12.

BTW, we were told by one of the record holders running a big block (John Shaul -- Max Wedge) that our single scraper gave him his lowest ET (now it is a dual scraper and should work even better). Talked to a few other pro builders and the word is that they knock off .10 second by themselves.

[shelbyz2342]

the problem wasn't with it hitting the crank because it wouldn't fit tight enough. the problem was around the oil pump area

i'm not doubting your product and the performance gains
now are they also running a windage tray also?

also in a 2.5 with the balance shafts removed wouldn't you still be close to having oil in contact with the crank in the bottom of the pan??

as for bang for the buck, i thought the mp tray for a big block is a great deal

i'm planing on sending it back to cindy because i also need some other parts, and my short block is already together

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 the problem wasn't with it hitting the crank because it wouldn't fit tight enough. the problem was around the oil pump area

Same offer holds for that component (the dual scraper half). All you'd need to do is pull the pan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 i'm not doubting your product and the performance gains now are they also running a windage tray also?

John said he carefully tried many combinations of scraper/no-scraper and various trays (oem and aftermarket). On the track he said the best results came from running our scraper alone.

Another owner that carefully tests said he picked up about 14 hp on the dyno when running our scraper and the Milodon tray (over the tray itself).

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 also in a 2.5 with the balance shafts removed wouldn't you still be close to having oil in contact with the crank in the bottom of the pan??

No, the opposite. Ala Archimedes and his tub we know that the balance shaft assembly has volume and displaces liquid volume. Remove them and the displaced volume is removed and total volume drops. I measured and built the trays to cover the stock amount of oil sitting statically in the pan. During operation at least a quart will be in circulation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 as for bang for the buck, i thought the mp tray for a big block is a great deal

Sure is -- kinda funny because lots of people thought it was snake oil back in the 60s when they added it. I think it is worth 13 hp. Remember that many of the big block builders have tens of thousands of dollars in their engine so going with even more technically advanced parts that are relatively inexpensive is a no-brainer.

I am sending out a BB template today. One of the Mopar magazines is doing a build-up and contacted us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 i'm planing on sending it back to cindy because i also need some other parts, and my short block is already together

Giving up some power for the sake of a pan gasket.

[shelbyz2342]

i never said anything about the gasket. so i'm not sure where you got that.
i just didn't like the fact that the fit wasn't just in need of minor triming. but some major triming and i just don't have the time to do it right now

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 i never said anything about the gasket. so i'm not sure where you got that.

You stated that your short block was completed -- a short block includes the pan. To access the area to fit the scraper requires removing the pan, hence the need to renew the gasket. It is how I think, that's all.

If the pan is not yet in place then the work to do is even less, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 i just didn't like the fact that the fit wasn't just in need of minor triming. but some major triming and i just don't have the time to do it right now

As I said earlier. there are numerous 2.2 and 2.5 cranks with different swept patterns. It sounds like you have a 2.5 from your question about oil levels in the pan. There are numerous different 2.5 cranks. Cindy is being very reasonable in stocking a general pattern that can be adjusted. I have been pretty reasonable over the years in offering to do custom scrapers for people at no extra charge -- it basically costs me in time about triple what you paid Cindy (conservatively). Remember everything has to be scanned, hand-traced (auto tracing doesn't work well), cleaned up and then recoded, cut, packed and shipped.

I really have to tell you that .25" is minor trimming on the spacer portion and would take me just a few minutes with a die grinder and fiber wheel. You mentioned that you designed and fabricated a windage tray yourself for "far less" than the dual tray Cindy offers so something is not jiving here unless you work slowly and place a zero value on your time.

And because you don't have the time to do it right now you want the vendor to take back the product.

Sigh.

It is how I think, that's all.

[shelbyz2342]

i'll called cindy to ask if this was common to need this much triming and she pulled one off of the shelf and tried it on and engine that she had in the shop and it did not have the problem i was having and out of being a great vendor that she is gave me the option of sending it back. so if you don't like it you can take that up with here, i could care less, and it wouldn't be the first time that i've wasted $70 and it probaly won't be the last

as for counting my time, well i'm sorry but i don't, i work on these projects as a hobby not as a job. so basically all i have in it is materials. if i figured a full price for my time i would be way in the hole. but like i said i do it as a hobby not as a business.

what is the windage tray that you provide cindy with $200?? granted it appears to be a nice piece and for someone that dosen't have the resources to fabricate its a good deal, but for others they can do it themselves. does that make them bad for not buying your product.
i personally feel as though your upset because i'm not pleased with your product. well i'm sorry i just expected something else than what i got.
i'm not upset or mad and i don't want to come across that way.
i jus