windage tray?

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 i'll called cindy to ask if this was common to need this much triming and she pulled one off of the shelf and tried it on and engine that she had in the shop and it did not have the problem i was having and out of being a great vendor that she is gave me the option of sending it back. so if you don't like it you can take that up with here, i could care less, and it wouldn't be the first time that i've wasted $70 and it probaly won't be the last

It is Cindy’s decision to do this, of course. My offer to make you a custom one at no charge was completely independent of her decision. The (rather, a) problem that I have with the above is that you are again missing the fact that Dodge produced many different 2.5 cranks with different swept paths. You are expecting something of a product that doesn’t make sense. Yet you have no problem criticizing the product publicly, oblivious to this – so here I am publicly defending it. Maybe that is something novel for you from a manufacturer – I am not sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 as for counting my time, well i'm sorry but i don't, i work on these projects as a hobby not as a job. so basically all i have in it is materials. if i figured a full price for my time i would be way in the hole. but like i said i do it as a hobby not as a business. what is the windage tray that you provide cindy with $200?? granted it appears to be a nice piece and for someone that dosen't have the resources to fabricate its a good deal, but for others they can do it themselves. does that make them bad for not buying your product.

No, it certainly doesn’t and I do the same thing for my own cars when I cannot obtain parts or want something different. I brought up the value of your time because your position was internally inconsistent.

By the way, the plastic Mopar windage tray for the Neon 2.0 is about the same price, i.e. $200. People sometimes like to play games like “throw out the price for a factory big block windage tray” to make my pricing seem inflated. Do you know anyone who would do that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 i personally feel as though your upset because i'm not pleased with your product. well i'm sorry i just expected something else than what i got. i'm not upset or mad and i don't want to come across that way.

I understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 i just think you have a chip on your shoulder. so i apologize for upseting you and i'm stopping this because it could go on and on and on.

One of the areas I studied was information warfare. Lots of psych tied up in that. The take-home message for this thread and my reaction to mis-information, as distinguished from dis-information – I don’t see that in you, is that it needs to be responded to immediately and point by point answered/refuted. People will still remember bits and pieces of information and mix them all up regardless. That’s one reason why even bad publicity is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelbyz2342 as for what this thread was started for i didn't go with the crank scraper because it wasn't what i was looking for or expected. (and since its not liked by some i will stick it on the shelf for a later date at which i may or may not use, maybe even be scraped)

Well, use of a crank scraper is empirically supported by Dodge, plain as day. People can disagree with that but they have the onus of presenting a cogent argument with empirical support. Haven’t seen that.

“i fabricated a windage tray of my own which i will not post pics of just because i'm sure its not up to mr. johnsons specifications.”

Your decision -- wish I could afford/justify making beautiful stamping dies for my products like the stock BB tray. Be pragmatic -- nothing wrong with that.

[LynX853]

i dunno about you guys, but i bought those crank scrapers, and it took a good 3 hours to install with the engine sitting on an engine stand

i had to grind it in about 20 places just so it wouldnt hit the crank, or connecting rods. a real pain in the @ss

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LynX853 i dunno about you guys, but i bought those crank scrapers, and it took a good 3 hours to install with the engine sitting on an engine stand i had to grind it in about 20 places just so it wouldnt hit the crank, or connecting rods. a real pain in the @ss

When did you get them?

The first several hundred scrapers I cut out by hand with a hand-made plasma-torch pantograph. That would include many of the early 2.2 and 2.5 scrapers.

Then about three years ago we moved to the CNC plasma-cutter.

Now we are in the process of transferring the cutting out to job shops with water jets.

That is with respect to the machining work and reproducability. The early scrapers were also made from 12 gauge -- now 16 (again -- briefly at 18 but reinforced) -- more work to adjust. One TurboDodge member, who is an ME, commented over 4 years ago that he was concerned re regular 16 gauge so we moved to 12 -- back to 16 when we found a reliable source of high strength steel.

To patterns: a number of TurboDodge members have found me sitting under a variety of engines in a wrecking yard that's a two hour round trip from home fitting patterns.

If I didn't have a pattern for a specific crank I would take a day off (often more) to try to find that one pattern for that one customer. After making the pattern I returned to check the fit. A great way to lose money and a tremendous amount of work but Samantha and I stuck it out -- for years now. Now you can understand why we have patterns for hundreds of different engines much less different cranks -- that's got to be in the thousands.

If people have trouble with a pattern __ CALL ME. I am not telepathic or clairvoyant.

If you are getting a pattern from Cindy and need a specific one she doesn't have I am happy to do a drop ship for her or develop a new pattern.

We do backflips trying to make customers happy but I am admittedly a quirky guy.

[LynX853]

i got it from fwdp about 4? months ago. its ok now... cause i made it work. but thanks for the concern

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LynX853 i got it from fwdp about 4? months ago. its ok now... cause i made it work. but thanks for the concern

Cindy carries three of our patterns: 2.2 T cast, 2.2 T forged, 2.5 turbo with no balance shafts.

The following has been on our website or Ebay ads for at least four years now:

Quote:

Please let us know what engine you have, for example: early 2.2 NA, late 2.2 NA common, block , 2.5 NA, 2.2 T with cast crankshaft, 2.2 T with forged crankshaft, 2.2 T common block with forged crankshaft - NO balance shaft assembly, 2.2 T common block with forged crankshaft and balance shafts (stock T3 & T4), 2.5 T, 2.5 T - balance shaft assembly removed.

I would conservatively guess that there are three times as many variations in the cranks of various engines even of the patterns Cindy carries. That is an ideosyncracy of Dodge -- not mine, not Cindy's. Dodge is more extreme in this regard but it is hardly unique.

The same thing is true of precision pressure cast sumps from Ford and BMW -- with the same part numbers, mind you. I discussed the situation with a gentleman from Cosworth Engineering and he related that much of this is due to pattern makers being left to their best judgement as to how to set up the molds within given parameters.

[LynX853]

yeah i understand. I have a 2.5 turbo, and "2.5" was cut into the scraper so i know it was the right one. it is a really nice piece, i just think more people should be aware that these are NOT drop in pieces. i consider myself lucky to have the engine out and easy access to the pan on an engine stand. I would of shot myself if I had to do it on car and 20 grinding corrections later it works... or worse yet, putting them in, and letting the crank and rods make the clearances for you

[Kevin Johnson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LynX853 yeah i understand. I have a 2.5 turbo, and "2.5" was cut into the scraper so i know it was the right one. it is a really nice piece, i just think more people should be aware that these are NOT drop in pieces. i consider myself lucky to have the engine out and easy access to the pan on an engine stand. I would of shot myself if I had to do it on car and 20 grinding corrections later it works... or worse yet, putting them in, and letting the crank and rods make the clearances for you

Here is a good exemplar. Looking at my notes, the Dodge V10 OEM crank scraper stands off 2.5mm from a fully machined crank (at closest approach, I believe) -- so two and a half times the 1mm I try to shoot for with steel patterns. They obviously know something about variability in castings and forgings.

Four years ago when I started with this I saw the general problem and invented the Teflon bladed scraper to deal with it.