Would you pay $630

[Jay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris W We have done it many times even when it's clearly a customer issue and not the fault of the piston manufacturer. Here's an just one example, Damaged Pistons Chris-TU

exactly my point, guys that stand behind what they sell. and dont talk crap when you question them

[GLH_Turbo22]

Wow Chris...that is some damn good customer service. I guess I know where I'm going to be getting my set of forged pistons.

MRX could stand behind them a little more but he might just be afraid to because the pistons he is selling are really one of a kind, so if he puts a warranty behind them and something goes wrong there really is no parts to replace it with. Where as TU has a tight relationship with Weisco so it's possible for him.

Like I said, just my 2 cents
kevin

[Turbo Joe]

Je's are junk? yea go learn something... alcohol funny car record holder bob taska III runs Je's, I've seriously abused Je's and didn't kill them. Ummm fastest Turbododge
stephane's shelby charger runs wisco pistons, a well respected name in racing...
and my Je's cost just shy of 700.00

[4 L-bodies]

Piston manufacturers can and do make mistakes making pistons. They can also be damaged in transit. Any manufacturer of custom pistons are making them from someone else's specs. That is the beauty and the curse of buying custom pistons. You can get exactly what you want providing you give the manufacturer the correct info. Most people would need help in determining exactly what they want. That is why almost everyone goes thru a machine shop or speed shop when they order pistons. In this case, MRX has done their homework for the average person, so you don't have to. More times than not, the failure of a piston is caused not by the piston manufacturer, but by miscommunication with your machinist, poor judgement by the owner, bad tune (A/F ratios not even close) fuel quality and quantity. etc. My point is, is that the piston manufacturer or speed shops fault? $630 for a truely custom piston is not that out of line. Buying a custom made piston and buying a stocked piston are two entirely different animals.

Jay, build a blueprinted HP motor sometime and see how much it costs! MRX is charging maybe 15-20% of that complete turn key $7000 motor for his labor. He has to eat too! Is that a lot of $? Of course it is, but this isn't a cookie cutter SBC is it? All Motor is right, that is what it costs to build a HP 2.2/2.5. Can they be made cheaper? Sure they can, but apples are not oranges. That is what it costs to play the game at this level. Most choose not to play the game at this level. Open a Jegs or Summit catalog and look for 4 cylinder turbo Mopars. Tell me what you find.

[T2 shadow]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay ill still never deal with him, hes a rip-off!!! this makes me laugh every time i see it, 350 HP 2.2-2.5 Complete Engine Package with Hybrid Turbo $6,921.00 Specs are as follows: Block is bored .030 over. Head will have Stage 2 porting. A Stage 2 Taft Cam and Performance Lifters and Rockers are installed. A restored Turbo Valve Cover, Degree Camshaft. ARP Head Bolts will be installed. Ported intake and exhaust manifolds. Open up the intake for a 52mm Throttle Body. Exhaust Manifold is ported. Has +40 MP Injectors, 52mm Throttle Body, and MP 2006 Head Gasket. Also, a Hybrid Turbo Package is included. You can choose between a S46 or S50 Trim and also between a small or large Compressor Housing. You can also choose your Exhaust Wheel. Stainless Steel Turbo Lines and Turbonetics Swing Valve for 3 inch Exhausts round out this package.

I can build a engine with WAY more power for that kinda price!
I laugh at the guy too. What a JOKE! As for the pistons if you spend that much for pistons for a N/A motor..well you have money to burn and have at it! HAHA ...for 10 times the money you can buy a turbo engine> MAN what a deal on those pistons!

[topdollar69]

I would trust the persons opinion that has actually put some research into his comments. How many 2.2L-2.5L engines have the rest of you guys built with different manufacturers forged pistons?

[Gutfeeling]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GLH_Turbo22 I know this guy personally. He is the owner of MRX Motors in Michigan. He does nothing but build TD motors all day. People send him their vehicles from all over to have them built by him. Check them out at MRX MOTORS He doesn't buy the N/A Dimond pistons in bulk so they charge him a higher price for the special order. As for a warranty...I don't know anybody that gives you a warranty with pistons. Have you ever got a piston replaced on warranty. I would say that if your planning on going the N/A route then these would be a good set of pistons to pick up. Kevin

I've been there once and drove past that place a few times. I like the red omni? with the cowl hood they have for a display facing nine mile.

[MR. X]

I just ran across this thread. Thank you all for the criticism and the support. Before I go into any type of defense for my detractors, I will give some background. I am a journeyman machinist. Durring that career, I worked in very high tolerance and aerospace shops holding tolerances of better than .00005 (50 millionths) to .000025 (25 millionths). I understand complete accuracy. I left that career for a time to work on concept cars for Masco Tech. Many of the vehicles we built from scratch cost in excess of 2-3 million dollars. This is the foundation of my knowledge.
Before I offer something to the public, be it an engine assembly or just a part, I make sure they do what they are supposed to do. I have had parts from all the major TD vendors come through my shop. Some of the custom designed parts work very well, some do the job, and some are faulty by design. We can use this anology for pistons as well. When I spend time to design a part or engine assembly for our community I want it to work, work well, and be as durable as possible. I could have possibly went to any other piston manufactures and had them make me basic pistons. I would then have cheap forged pistons. Or I could work out a deal and buy another vendors piston. What I found durring many years of engine building is not all pistons are the same. I have had here Weisco, JE, Venolia, Clevite, TRW forged, and Diamond pistons. I can make 300-400 hp with cast pistons. Will they last. For a time. Even though the tuning would be perfect for when I tuned the car there will be variables. This is what may destroy a piston. Using forged reduces or eliminates the risk of failure. I verify (measure) all measurements and parts. I have seen pistons vary .001 inch. This variance is unacceptable. I demand from diamond +.0000 / -.0003 as my tolerance. Also when using all the other brands The piston to bore clearance is excessive. I cant stand the noise they make when cold. I wanted a strong, accurate, quite piston. Hense my improved design and higher cost. The alloys are also different from manufacturer to manufacturer. This is important. My intention was never to bash anothers pistons, but point out in a direct manner that I sell a premium product. Hey, my 350 hp Lebaron has Venolias and they work fine, but when the engine is cold the noise is unacceptable. The pistons that are on the market are all cookie cutter shelf stock products. They have little or no options so as to keep the price low. I understand that many in the TD community are trying to build their cars on a tight budget. I respect that and work real hard to stay within budgetary limits on the projects I work on. I set a budget for all of my personal projects as well. We have a 91 Shadow ES we are working on getting 12 second passes for $1200.00. By using used parts and spending money on head work, turbo and intercooler, we are into the $2000 range, not including any labor. This is a .040 over core that came in, in descent condition, that had a rod knock. It has cast pistons. The projected power levels are 300-320hp at the flywheel. It will run for a while, but at some point in the near future, it will most likely fail. If anyone spends 3-4k on parts for their engine, would they not want longevity? About 20% of the jobs that come into my shop are butchered jobs from other shops. Some of them well known around here. I do find were they have made their mistakes. Yes, I have a business and business are expected to make a profit. If I did not make a profit I might as well close down. I also do work on other types of vehicles as well. A Honda would generally require a $14k+ engine to go 10's. On our cars I can do it for around $10k installed much of the time. Also, I know of no custom engine builder that offers a warrenty on a high performance engine. I have spoken to Venolia and Diamond about warrenties. They also do not offer a warrenty.
As for power, the SOHC design is maxed out at around 400hp. With a DOHC design, power levels of 600+ hp are possible. The math and the dyno do not lie. The Lebaron is running 11's with good driveablity and descent reliablity. I have made some upgrades so I expect power levels 340hp at the wheels on a loaded dyno, whick is right around 400hp at the flywheel. I have spent over $100k on various project and engines to find out what works best. I am working on a DOHC 2.2/2.5 package and the R&D alone will run over $40k. The SRT4 engine package R&D will run about $50k. I am very serious about what I do. I have an open door policy at the shop. Anyone is welcome to stop by and see what I do or call or email.

Mike
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[TurboDodgeWagon]

Paragraphs are your friend.

I'm not even going to try reading that clusterf**k until its broken up, its giving me a headache looking at it.

[InfinityShelbyZ]

Hahahaha, if you can't read that boy you need to go back to school. Thats fine to read.

[kermit]

+1 MR. X... Couldn't have said it better

Jay... I don't think that his prices are high. When you read custom, read $$$. There's also a lot of money into that motor, and a LOT of experience behind it. Can 350hp be made cheaper...probably, but to rebuild that motor again, you will find that his price is about right.

And you really think that he's so far off, open up your own shop

[TurboDodgeWagon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfinityShelbyZ Hahahaha, if you can't read that boy you need to go back to school. Thats fine to read.

I can read quite well.

I refuse to try reading things that hurt my eyes to read. Everything just blurs together when its in one big blob thats not broken up.

[InfinityShelbyZ]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TurboDodgeWagon I can read quite well. I refuse to try reading things that hurt my eyes to read. Everything just blurs together when its in one big blob thats not broken up.

Sorry friend, just had to retort to your rude way of responding to him. I can understand, but when you have so many good points and so much to say as he did its hard to please everyone.

[MR. X]

Sorry for not using paragraphs. I do not post very often, but I did feel I had to this time.

I am just starting a 2.0 turbo engine job on a 96 Neon. My client bought the car with a damaged motor. He stated that it had alot of good parts in it. Upon dissassembly we found that a rod bolt let loose and the rod went through the block. The engine had JE pistons, Eagle rods, a Moroso aluminum oil pan, a no brand turbo and several other hi-po parts. I will stick to the rods and pistons for now though.

Causality is on of the most important things here in the shop. Why do parts fail? It appears that the rod bolt was over torqued, streached, and then broke, thus causing failure. I wanted to see what improvement I could make to lessen the likleyhood of this occurring again. I reversed engineered the JE piston. It seems that they kept the same pin diameter as stock. The JE pistons also have the same pin retainers as a stock T2 engine would have. Also the compression height seems a bit off. Also it appears that they did not offset the pin. I made some calls and sent some emails to see if this is the design that is being marketed. It is. On ebay you can buy these pistons with Eagle rods for around $700.

Now for the rods. Eagle makes a descent product. Unknown to most is that many of them are made in China. I do think the forgings are done here though. Most of the Eagle rods I have seen are dimensionally inaccurate. the rod length may vary .005in or more. You would have one piston in the hole .010in and one at 0 deck. This is not good. The rod itself is good as long as you remachine it. For the 2.0 there is little choise because most of us, including myself are unwilling to spend $1000 for a custom set of rods.

I may offer this same kit, (Diamond pistons, pins, rings, and remachined Eagle rods with better bolts), but the price will be around $1200. Is it worth it? You all be the judge. This is the kit going in the engines I do here. I do not say this to be condensending in any way.

I have also made an improvement to the 2.2/2.5 engine packages. Testing has shown that under high boost levels the engine without main studs twist way too much. All assemblies rated for 250hp and more will get the main stud package.

One thing to remember is that engines have a life cycle. In racing, it is how many times down the track before an engine needs rebuilding. It is also true of daily drivers. It is how many thermal cycles a part is designed to handle. Top fuel cars replace their piston after every or every other race. You can research this more fully on you own.

I know when a top racer goes to a piston manufacturer like Diamond, to have parts made they are getting the very best they can make. All other jobs are secondary. The order is also handled directly by management. To be honest I dont have that kind of clout yet. I do get get great service from Diamond and they do stand by their parts if they are machined wrong. Usually a piston never fails in of itself. It is usually the cause of bad assembly, bad tuning, another part failing, etc.

I come to this group in humility. Without all of us, and our love for these cars, I would be constrained to working on rusty broken Michigan cars because in all good conscience I dont want to be an import tuner. LOL. At first I started out as an engine assembler. I would put alot of responsibilty in the hands of the machinist and would have to trust that the new parts were good. I now have become an engine builder. I modify any parts accordingly to fit as the specifications require.

I may post more later, but I think i have sufficently explained some key points.

MR. X

[speeduphoria]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MR. X I understand complete accuracy.

Just a question, how come you don't accurately list the CR or the weight of the pistons you sell? You may get more sales if people know what they are bidding on.