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Engine - Block Improving strength and durability - pistons to crank

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Old 07-13-2008, 11:34 PM   #1
block interchangeabilty......  
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Are the N/A versions of the 2.2L the same as the Turbo blocks?
Do the 2.5 blocks interchange with the 2.2's?

Im trying to pick-up pretty much just a block to build and put in my 86 Daytona and there arent any common block turbo motors around me, but there are N/A 2.2's all over the place where I am at....can I use them? And would they need any modifications?
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:39 PM   #2
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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You will need to drill and tap for the oil return line in a n/a engine.
the *common block* motors are 89+ and those are the ones that interchangeable.
Years before 89 they are not!
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:11 AM   #3
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbokid View Post
You will need to drill and tap for the oil return line in a n/a engine.
the *common block* motors are 89+ and those are the ones that interchangeable.
Years before 89 they are not!
I hate to ask a stupid question, but where would you drill and tap for the oil return?

So only 89+ N/A blocks interchange?
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:21 AM   #4
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zippitta View Post
I hate to ask a stupid question, but where would you drill and tap for the oil return?

So only 89+ N/A blocks interchange?
what he is saying is that pre-common block 2.2s and 2.5s had different deck heights.

I would run the return into the pan to save the hassle of drilling and tapping the block, but thats me... and gotta use turbo pistons, but you knew that.
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:31 AM   #5
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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Any 2.2/2.5 block will PHYSICALLY bolt into your car, but hooking up/adapting
anything other than a '86 2.2 turbo block such as you currently have will require skills/knowledge that you may not possess. Numerous other year engine blocks can be used in your car, some with very little changing necessary. But converting an N/A eng. to a turbo requires more than just a desire to do so. It's always easier when starting out to stick with "Remove
and Replace".
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Old 07-14-2008, 03:57 AM   #6
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ol"blue View Post
It's always easier when starting out to stick with "Remove
and Replace".
I guess I agree.
2.2NA -> 2.2turbo (along with a good rebuild):
remove NA pistons & replace with Turbo pistons
remove NA valves & replace with Stainless valves
remove block plug & replace with turbo coolant feed
Then all you got left is figuring out your oil return.

That will get you down the road...
You will want to get better rods and forged pistons for a performance build.

What are your HP goals??? Any more then 300 or so, you'll prolly want to find a commonblock (more meat around the mains) and a 2.2 forged crank to fit it. I'm not saying it will be easy to find.
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Old 07-14-2008, 01:57 PM   #7
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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I have a turbo block, forged crank, and rods if your comming to jacksonville anytime soon
Actually have a head, intake, and exhaust maniflod if you need them too.
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Old 07-14-2008, 02:43 PM   #8
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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i know how to bild motors and stuff, i am just new to TD's so i dont know what does anddoes not interchange...its just fster to ask people who know han to track down spec/measurement sheets. and i wasnt sure if maybe there was a preferred place in these blocks to place the oil return other than the pan... also, from thesounds of it...the na blocks camewith cast cranks...corect me if i am wrong but they are the same cranks that come in the pre common block turbo motors right?
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Old 07-14-2008, 05:07 PM   #9
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zippitta View Post
oil return other than the pan... also, from thesounds of it...the na blocks camewith cast cranks...corect me if i am wrong but they are the same cranks that come in the pre common block turbo motors right?
Common Block Cranks are different than early cranks.Early cranks can be used in CB engines with front seal modifications and use early pans,timing gears etc.Will detail mods if necessary.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:18 AM   #10
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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I've done the conversion. I put a non tubo 89 block in my 87 daytona turbo. Just ensure you put the 89 and newer parts on the block also as the earlier parts don't fit. Ie 89 and newer use a different water pump and a round tooth timing belt and round tooth (as opposed to square tooth) timing sprockets. Use the newer alternator brackets. I believe everything else should be the same. As for the actual block just unscrew the tubo coolant return plug that's in the block and if you want it to be stock then you'll need to drill out the oil return and pound in the return pipe into the block. Where do you drill it, you'll notice a little round area on the back of the block close to the pan. If you want you should also cross drill the block (basically drilling 3 little holes between the cylinders to help coolant flow up into the head. Very easy to do with an old turbo headgasket as a guide and a drill. Just go on a 45 degree angle and it's a piece of cake. And that's how you transform a non turbo to a turbo block.
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Old 07-17-2008, 10:58 AM   #11
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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Here's a visual aid:

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Old 07-18-2008, 10:58 AM   #12
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screamin4banger View Post
I guess I agree.
2.2NA -> 2.2turbo (along with a good rebuild):
remove NA pistons & replace with Turbo pistons
remove NA valves & replace with Stainless valves
remove block plug & replace with turbo coolant feed
Then all you got left is figuring out your oil return.

That will get you down the road...
You will want to get better rods and forged pistons for a performance build.

What are your HP goals??? Any more then 300 or so, you'll prolly want to find a commonblock (more meat around the mains) and a 2.2 forged crank to fit it. I'm not saying it will be easy to find.
can non cb cranks be modified to fit a cb, or is it the other way around. i have two non cb forged cranks. seems like a waste of performance to install forged cranks anyway...
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Old 07-18-2008, 04:47 PM   #13
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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some one told me that the brakets for the power steering are different to? anyone got any pictures of this..im in the same boat..got an 87 shelby tona, and wanting to build big power....got a cb from a 90 shadow tbi. And i am making the change but am not to sure on the all the different mods.... i got that you can use the same crank right? i've got forged rods and pistons for the 2.2..
will the crank that's in this CB that i have will work for hp up to 350-400 right? it's strong enough isnt it?
also will the early cam and crank sproket fit? on the newer CB? and what other pully's wont work? ...need info ...asap! thanks.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:51 PM   #14
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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use a N/A common block, 90 or later, but use all the accesories that go with it- the pan, front cover assembly, water pump, cam, crank, and intermediate shafts are different. so are the power steering , alternator, pulleys etc are different too. just get a complete engine and use all the stuff- will make life a lot easier and less confusing.

get a set TII rods!!! the N/A CB engines and TI engines use a lightweight rod- they are a bomb waiting to go off. the rods interchange so theres no problems there. you can also use Eagle H-beam rods for an SRT-4 neon, they pretty much drop in except the small end of the rod needs to be honed out to fit the larger 2.2 piston pin. but if you order custom forged pistons you can get them with the smaller SRT-4 pin and they drop in. you need to use SRT-4 rod bearing with them though. you can also get stock SRT-4 rods from the dealer- they're like 50 bucks each for a rod and piston assembly. ditch the pistons and sell em and you've got a set of rods stronger than TII rods for around 100 bucks.

if you have a forged non CB crank you can use it in a CB engine, but you have to turn the front seal surface on the crank down to size- the CB seal is smaller. you also need to use the non CB spockets with that crank, the snout is a different size on the non CB crank. forged crank is not necessary unless you're aiming for the stars. a cast crank will hold every bit of 350- 400 hp, so id just stay with that to keep things simple.

turbo CB and N/A common blocks are the same except for the oil return and coolant feed for the turbo like screamin shows in the pic. just have your machine shop drill it out and install the tube. the oil feed for the turbo comes from the distribution block on the front of the engine where the oil pressure switch is- it has a restrictor in it for the turbo oil feed- just unscrew it and screw it into the N/A block and youre good. all CB engines are crossdrilled after 89- the head gaskets last a lot longer.

do not use hyperreutectic pistons- they are only good on N/A motors. they can not withstand ANY detonation at all. cast pistons are fine to around 300 hp or so if you are tuned right. forged are best!

89 and later heads use a roller cam- less friction= more power, less heat in the valvetrain. the main differences between a turbo and N/A head are the valves and springs- turbo heads have stainless exhaust valves and stiffer springs. DO NOT use N/A valves in a turbo engine- they will last all of 3000 miles or so, they can not take the heat! an N/A cam is a mild upgrade over a turbo cam, little more lift and duration. for a fresh build i'd prefer to start with a N/A head because my experience has been that they have fewer cracks, arent warped as bad, and dont have the valve guides dropping nearly as much as i see in used turbo heads. get new valves , springs, 3 angle valve job and its time to rock and roll

i dont know if you've seen Gary Donovans website, he has a lot more info on there with detailed pics, part #'s etc all the differences between the CB , non CB engines etc- it should be required reading for anyone insterested in doing any performance work on these engines Donovan's Dodge Garage

anything not covered there we can answer here, one of us can hook you up and send you on the right path to terrorising your local rice burners
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:01 PM   #15
Re: block interchangeabilty......  
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Great post. A few things I would like to add though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crusty shadow
the N/A CB engines and TI engines use a lightweight rod- they are a bomb waiting to go off
Only early T1s used the light weight rods that you need to avoid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crusty shadow
89 and later heads use a roller cam- less friction= more power, less heat in the valvetrain
Roller cams help until a certain point, but when you start to really make power, you can make more power with different cam than with a roller cam (After a certain point, the power made by a different cam profile makes more than the 15hp or so seen by the rollers)

I believe that it's actually a n/a cam that gives us the best results, but I can't remember the year... sorry.
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