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Old 06-30-2009, 01:48 AM   #31
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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I think it's the different design there that allows the rod bolts to be changed without a problem, you remove the bolts every time you remove the rods..
The thing I don't like about the SRT4 rods is the oil squirters.. Talk about a windage problem! But I guess you can use normal bearings with them, and the squirters get disabled when you do that.
I was under the impression that oil squirters were a good idea. Aren't they there to squirt oil on the piston to help cool it?
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:53 AM   #32
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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Someone thought they were a good idea, or they wouldn't be there.. I think they are a horrible idea. It's a long established fact that having oil up around the crankshaft robs power. Check out the oil pan gasket for an SRT4 sometime, it does have some crank scrapers built into it to help offset this problem. But imagine using those if you didn't have the rods spewing oil so badly, then they'd actual be helpful.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:58 AM   #33
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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That's good information from the Neon boards, but what does that tell us about OUR rods? They gave rather specific information. The truth is, regardless of the difference in forging processes between Neon rods and the TII rods you guys are talking about, they are altogether different. The part geometry itself is not the same for starters. If you can find the specific tensile and torsional strength rating for TII rods, then that would do us alot more good. I know many different parts can survive those high powered monsters such as the 600+ neon and so on and so forth, but that fatigue is a killer over time. I'll get it into that whenever I go into detail on metallurgy.
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Old 06-30-2009, 12:40 PM   #34
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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It seemed like they referenced the "older style forging" in that post, I assumed that referred to our rods. I know I felt more at ease about using SRT4 rods (and the N/A rods I'm running at 265hp right now) after reading that post.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:29 PM   #35
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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It seemed like they referenced the "older style forging" in that post, I assumed that referred to our rods. I know I felt more at ease about using SRT4 rods (and the N/A rods I'm running at 265hp right now) after reading that post.
I am unsure what the actual forging process was for those rods. I can guarantee that the older forged parts will still handle plenty of power. So if you err on the side of caution by having these newly forged parts then great. I'm all about that. I just don't think, and definately not at 265hp, that there's going to be a HUGE difference. Most of us aren't running 4 and 5 and 600hp for starters...
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Old 06-30-2009, 05:06 PM   #36
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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I'm running N/A 2.4/2.0 rods at 265.. Not SRT4 or T2 rods.. I imagine they are roughly equivalent to the TD LW rods.. They look SCARY thin when set next to a T2 rod.. ;) Over the next winter, I plan to ditch the SRT4 turbofold, toss on a P&P DOHC head, and run something like an EVO turbo. (trying to keep the turbo lag down..) I'll be aiming for 400whp at that point. Hence the reason I started this thread.. Just trying to better understand my options. :)
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Old 06-30-2009, 06:29 PM   #37
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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I'm running N/A 2.4/2.0 rods at 265.. Not SRT4 or T2 rods.. I imagine they are roughly equivalent to the TD LW rods.. They look SCARY thin when set next to a T2 rod.. ;) Over the next winter, I plan to ditch the SRT4 turbofold, toss on a P&P DOHC head, and run something like an EVO turbo. (trying to keep the turbo lag down..) I'll be aiming for 400whp at that point. Hence the reason I started this thread.. Just trying to better understand my options. :)
When I was into dsm's a lot of people ran 50 trims to get around 400+hp. They are real cheap and spool pretty fast.
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Old 07-01-2009, 12:43 AM   #38
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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I'm running N/A 2.4/2.0 rods at 265.. Not SRT4 or T2 rods.. I imagine they are roughly equivalent to the TD LW rods.. They look SCARY thin when set next to a T2 rod.. ;) Over the next winter, I plan to ditch the SRT4 turbofold, toss on a P&P DOHC head, and run something like an EVO turbo. (trying to keep the turbo lag down..) I'll be aiming for 400whp at that point. Hence the reason I started this thread.. Just trying to better understand my options. :)
Oh, I totally missed that

In that case, the N/A rods are probably not even forged right? Are they just regular cast parts? If that's the case, 300 is probably pushing it on those rods? I noticed on the FWD-P site, for their Eagle H Beam rods they say they are Mag'd, X-Ray'd, and Ultrasonics tested. That is WAY OVERKILL. That is my job, and I NEVER use 3 different inspection methods on ANYTHING.
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Old 07-01-2009, 01:32 AM   #39
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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They are powdered metal, so I believe that means they have to be forged, can't cast powdered metal rods. So they're as strong as you can get, with thin arse rods.. :)
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:10 AM   #40
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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They are powdered metal, so I believe that means they have to be forged, can't cast powdered metal rods. So they're as strong as you can get, with thin arse rods.. :)
Powder pressing is its own category of manufacturing parts. There's only a few ways to do it. Billet is machined out of a solid piece of metal. Casting is pouring liquid metal into molds. Powder is a fine grain substance that is pressed together at high heat in the mold.

Forging is a process of hardening the metal after the initial manufacturing of the part. Think of the blacksmith hammering a sword on an anvil. That is forging.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:50 AM   #41
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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spirit R/T guys are in the mid 500s with the same rods as a T2 or mini van.

Relentless was on spray and hit 7,500 RPM when one let go. Stupid crap like massive detonation and dyno hitting 7,500 RPM on an 8v with no plenum and 14" runners doesn't count.

T2 rods are heat treated and aren't a cracked rod, then have a larger floating pin. So they will hold more than an SRT 4 rod, regardless of whether or not SRT guys get butt hurt over it. Material and design is going to just mean something lol.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:25 AM   #42
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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And this is why I don't understand the Eagle rods.. Wooptie doo, we designed a rod that's good for MAYBE 100hp more than your stock rods.. WTF.. Why not design them to be twice as strong? Would it really hurt to have a rod rated for 1000hp? heh.. Anyways, good info.. Everything I've seen about the Neon powdered rods say they are forged, so they must have some kind of heat treating done to them.
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Old 07-01-2009, 10:48 AM   #43
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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And this is why I don't understand the Eagle rods.. Wooptie doo, we designed a rod that's good for MAYBE 100hp more than your stock rods.. WTF.. Why not design them to be twice as strong? Would it really hurt to have a rod rated for 1000hp? heh.. Anyways, good info.. Everything I've seen about the Neon powdered rods say they are forged, so they must have some kind of heat treating done to them.
The HP "rating" of the Eagle rods or our rods is a one size fits all description. Which falls under nearly the same range of difference as a 150 lb woman 4 ft tall and a 100 lb 5 ft tall woman both waring the same pantyhose. HP "limits" are based off difference factors. A 600 HP all motor, 11,000 RPM Honda on a 300 shot of Nitrous will break a 600 HP rated Eagle rod. But the rod will last a good while before it gives. Then comes the lower RPM turbo engines, they stress the engine and rods completely differently.

A high RPM engine sends a lot of vibration through the rod beam and translates it to the block, twisting and stressing the block. With a cast crank these twisting forces get out of control enough to put the rotating parts out of alignment with flex. At this point the rods cap and rod bolts are really important to keeping the rod together. The piston pin and the beam aren't being used as much, most all strength is in the cap end to fail. But a great block like an SRT 4 block or a forged crank or both make high RPM twist issues weak. Honda's just get forged cranks for instance.

Then comes high cylinder pressure lower RPM power makers, like a turbo engine. The T2 rod has a cap and bolt made to hold a 4.13" bore small block V8 piston, but they have only a tiny 3.45" bore piston to hold. In the case of a 2.2 with shorter stroke they can rev all day at 7,000 RPM with 300 HP. Most turbo people drag race and have only short bursts, even on the street you get short bursts. But unlike the RPM engine the Beam and piston pin get a beating. The rod cap isn't doing a lot, the engine isn't revving that high. The beam has to take the force of torque created by the turbo. The guy with the 638 WHP SRT 4 engine is an example. When the engine had back pressure added to it by a better drive train the rods buckled under the torque. But it didn't shatter the rod caps like glass like what happens in a RPM built engine.

Lastly materials and stress breaks. The SRT 4 rod is a cast forged rod with a pressed pin and a cracked rod cap. The T2 rod is a cast forged rod with a HD piston pin that is floating, and all together larger diameter than an SRT 4 pin. Then the rods are heat treated after forging for surface hardness. cast rods like these break from microscopic stress cracks that give way to a large break. The machine cut T2 rod is better suited for RPM use. The SRT 4 rod is snapped at the rod cap after casting, which weakens the rod at the cap. SRT 4s come with a 5,900 RPM rev limiter though. The grain of a cracked cap rod sucks, a SRT 4 rod would like shot peening to smooth the surface cracks from separating the rod caps. Shot peening is a surface hardening, which the T2 basically has stock but hardened with impaction instead of heat. The big one is shot peening though with a cast rod. The cast rod will break on the grain of the casting, then the break will follow through the grain to the other side. Cast rods snap the beam in half, shot peening gets you past this a ways as the microscopic cracks can't start on the surface and work there way in the beam.

Now we have an Eagle rod. The caps are machine cut, not fractures. The metal is a denser grade of forging. In the cast of a T2 rod you get some cap walk from having a bolt and nut, there is some room for movement. The Eagle rod has a bolt on cap, no nut, so the bolt centers and holds the cap from walking. The beam and the rest of the rod can't break along one grain, which is how a cast rod breaks. The reason is that a Eagle rod is a 2 piece forging. The rod can't fail across the grain because the grain doesn't go more than half way through the rod. They sound scary, like you can bad mouth them for it. But the fact is with a turbo or high RPM a beam will snap across the grain of the material. A 2 piece forging breaks up the grain of the whole rod so it can't fracture all the way through. So the eagle rod has more than enough cap for RPM use but the cap isn't a lot stronger than a T2 cap. So in an RPM based engine the Eagle is stronger but not greatly. Most strength comes from the rod not failing along the grain from high RPM twist. Now you talk low RPM boost and torque with an Eagle H beam? 4 bolt mains and a steel crank and a 2.2 could run 1,000 HP with Eagles 8v. If they could get there lol. A SRT 4 has a serious block and girdle, they can get get up to about 900 HP with a rod. Add a forged crank and the SRT 4 block with Eagles can go past 1,000 HP. Then comes tuning, this is with engines tuned right. Any rod will fail with you detonate too hard. An Eagle will take some detonation at high HP levels a lot better than a T2 rod. So make 600 WHP with a T2 rod or SRT 4 rod, but don't screw up, ever. The Eagle will let you hit it a few times at this level.

So as the RPM range, piston weight, rod ratio, block rigidness, main caps and crank material all greatly effect how much power a rod can handle. So when you hear 600 HP Eagle rod there aiming at a not so perfect world with clowns building engines. A SRT 4 with forged crank, super light weight pistons, lower turbo RPM power, ARP main studs, oil repelling engine coating and a great tune? Now your talking about an engine that lives for years at 800 -900 HP with 600 HP rods

600 WHP T2 rod engine? Done right your still on thin ice, but as long as you don't hit an over boost buck or detonate your OK. That is coated, magnafluxed and shot peened though :)
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Last edited by The Pope; 07-02-2009 at 01:57 AM..
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Old 07-01-2009, 11:25 AM   #44
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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Good post, and I don't want to seem like I'm nitpicking.. But.. The SRT4 rod has a floating wrist pin just like the T2 rods do. I was actually looking into rebushing them to use a pressed pin so that I can stick with the higher compression N/A pistons.. :)
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Old 07-01-2009, 12:58 PM   #45
Re: Highest power level with stock T2 rods?  
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Magnufluxing has nothing to do with strengthening a rod, it is a method for finding cracks in metals, and an eagle rod is not two pieces its two pieces by the cap and the rod as you cannot forge somthing in two pieces
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