Total Seal rings!

[John B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope the gapless type are real thin where they overlap. Thin melts faster.

This would suggest that gapless might be better in the second groove?

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John B This would suggest that gapless might be better in the second groove?

had not thought of that, that would be a good idea. Let the thick old typw ring (file fit at least) take the heat blast and let the second ring hold anything left over. A great idea really, but then your buying 2 sets of rings. But there is no sizing issue if you use file fit. The gapless on the second row would be used to the right size, then the file fit is filed to match anyway. That would be sweet!

[John B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope but then your buying 2 sets of rings.

If you call Totalseal directly they will sell you a single ring set i.e a set of top rings or a set of second rings. You don't have to buy a whole ring set. Some people don't like Totalseals oil control ring so they mix and match.

[Reaper1]

It's been an issue with using the second ring being gapless due to the fact that pressure does build between the two rings. It will lift the top of the pistons off...that is why people didn't like them at first. The new ones that have the top ring being gapless are awesome. They use a different metal and are capable of taking the abuse you guys are concerned about. There are a number of people on this list using them with good results...I'd say you're overthinking things....

[Ondonti]

You must have an oil control ring. Cars running upwards of 9-10k rpms can do without a 2nd compression ring (not a street car though, race only).
If you dont have an oil ring you will glaze the cylinder walls and you can kiss compression goodbye.

I think we should avoid putting all are bets on one magazine artical or even 20-30 people who are happy with their total seal rings. I know of professional race engine builders who laugh at total seal rings, and just stick with plain old sealed power moly rings in motors that make an embarrasing amount of hp compared to most TD's.

Leakdown tests really can not be the final say on how much blowbye you will have.

Just because you have 2% leakdown when things are stopped, does not mean your rings are sealing when you are driving.
-------------------------------------------------------
Just some information for everyone. Top ring disapates about 80% of the heat

Here are more stats
-----------Pressure sealing------Oil control -------Frictional losses
top ring--------78%--------------5%*-----------------30%
second ring-----22%-------------45%* ----------------20%
oil control ------------------------70%-----------------50%
*top and 2nd rings only contrl this much oil when oil ring is worn/sticking.

Going to a lower tension oil control ring can bring out a lot of frictional losses.

Lateral gas ports to allow exhaust to seal the rings is a great improvment. It is not quite so extreme as those drag motor pistons that were described.
Preventing ring flutter with lateral gas ports on moly rings (or using dykes rings) will see greater results then any total seal ring can achieve on its own. Ring gap plays a very small role in blowbye when the piston is at high speeds.

If you do not bed the rings in correctly then it is very hard to compare things. Do a simple google and you will find 300 different ways of bedding the rings and then running the rings in. I know people here use all different ways, and certainly some of these methods are very wrong.

Anyways have fun with those #'s. I personally would like to find lower tension oil rings for my 3.0 if I ever rebuild. I dont have an opinion on what rings I would use.

[unclejemima]

Good write-up Ondonti. Very interesting
-mark

[Putter]

Whats your take on the worst way to run in a set of rings?

[John B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2.2=8 I use Total seal gapless, that 2% leakdown claim is true. and the oil burning issue is FALSE. Just follow Total Seal instructions exactly (bore finish, hone type, and lube procedure, etc.) Ive used them on NA engines with good results also. Warren

What pistons are you using Warren?

[John B]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Putter Whats your take on the worst way to run in a set of rings?

Let it overheat and don't vary the RPM

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Putter Whats your take on the worst way to run in a set of rings?

Let it idle for hours and don't drive it very hard, poor bores will glaze and you'll have shitty compression and lots of blowby!

At told before, load the engine almost instantly, idle it enough to set timing, levels then go load it up, decel, load it up, decel, Hastings says 25 times, thats all I do then beat the piss out of it,

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti Here are more stats -----------Pressure sealing------Oil control -------Frictional losses top ring--------78%--------------5%*-----------------30% second ring-----22%-------------45%* ----------------20% oil control ------------------------70%-----------------50%

are these stats of the rings buy them selves or together? 5% + 45% + 70% = 120%. Did you mean 25% on the second ring? Can a guy coat the oil ring with the slick stuff we use on pistons skirts? Friction loss there looks high, but would slick change how it scrapes oil though

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman Let it idle for hours and don't drive it very hard, poor bores will glaze and you'll have shitty compression and lots of blowby! At told before, load the engine almost instantly, idle it enough to set timing, levels then go load it up, decel, load it up, decel, Hastings says 25 times, thats all I do then beat the piss out of it,

I like the mountain passes around here for ring seating, I hit low boost in 5th to get them hot. Then get a couple hundred miles and change the oil, then drive back over the pass using 4th and pushing the car. All at low boost though, like 8, not low like 15 lol.

[turbovanman]

Well, she's running. Got it running, bled coolant, set timing and went around the block at 5 psi. Then set to 15 psi and beat the shit out of it going home. No oil issues, no blue smoke, checked plugs, lovely tan colour and no signs of oil, have 100 km's on it though!

Called Total Seal, wanted to know when I could switch to synthetic, 3000 miles. Asked how they would break them in, "beat the piss out of it"

After 1000 km's, going to check compression and do a leakdown, will post results.

[glhsken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman Called Total Seal, wanted to know when I could switch to synthetic, 3000 miles. Asked how they would break them in, "beat the piss out of it" .

IS THERE ANY OTHER WAY??

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by glhsken IS THERE ANY OTHER WAY??

No, but when I took the "WEEK OFF", there was numerous debates on how to break rings in, the most seemed to be gently, just reaffirming the correct way,