Block cleaning and machining

[Koreth]

Okay, here is the deal. I have a used 2.5 on the engine stand, which I would like to get into the daytona and have her ready for tech inspections at the track come april. Last night while I was working on it, I discovered that the stupid thing still had oil in it. Well, not oli really but more a of a gross black sludge. That was a fun mess to clean up. I thought the block was dirty on the outside, even after 6 cans of Foamy Engine Brite. I was initially just planning on pulling the balacne shafts and giving it a new set of seals and gaskets, because with the block's dirty outside, something was leaking at one point at least.

However, seeing a full pan of sludge is making me apprehensive that the motor might have have much more wear than meets the eye on the bearings and rings and such. I have found a machine shop that does the machine work, but I'd still have to assemble the engine. My concern is, though getting the longblock dissassembled, cleaned, and at least checked is a good idea, it will take me time to save up the money, and then I'd still have to reassemble it. There is the risk that if it takes too long, I might miss registration and tech inspections for this season, which would suck. I know how sturdy these engines are, should I be okay if I keep my fluids up? The guy I bought the engine from said it was running strong when it was pulled, Though I take that with a grain of salt, because there WAS all that sludge in the pan.

I realize that not having the engine rebuilt is taking a risk, but if it sounds good when I start is up (no grinding or rod knock or anything), and my compression tests good, I should be okay, right? The engine WILL get a headgasket whether it needs it or not, because it will be a LOT easier to bolt the shortblock to the trans and put that in the car first, and then put the head with the turbo and manifolds already on it than to try to add the manifolds in the car or get the chains on the load leveler around the intake manifold. That headgasket would be the biggest thing to be worried about, right?

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koreth Okay, here is the deal. I have a used 2.5 on the engine stand, which I would like to get into the daytona and have her ready for tech inspections at the track come april. Last night while I was working on it, I discovered that the stupid thing still had oil in it. Well, not oli really but more a of a gross black sludge. That was a fun mess to clean up. I thought the block was dirty on the outside, even after 6 cans of Foamy Engine Brite. I was initially just planning on pulling the balacne shafts and giving it a new set of seals and gaskets, because with the block's dirty outside, something was leaking at one point at least. However, seeing a full pan of sludge is making me apprehensive that the motor might have have much more wear than meets the eye on the bearings and rings and such. I have found a machine shop that does the machine work, but I'd still have to assemble the engine. My concern is, though getting the longblock dissassembled, cleaned, and at least checked is a good idea, it will take me time to save up the money, and then I'd still have to reassemble it. There is the risk that if it takes too long, I might miss registration and tech inspections for this season, which would suck. I know how sturdy these engines are, should I be okay if I keep my fluids up? The guy I bought the engine from said it was running strong when it was pulled, Though I take that with a grain of salt, because there WAS all that sludge in the pan. I realize that not having the engine rebuilt is taking a risk, but if it sounds good when I start is up (no grinding or rod knock or anything), and my compression tests good, I should be okay, right? The engine WILL get a headgasket whether it needs it or not, because it will be a LOT easier to bolt the shortblock to the trans and put that in the car first, and then put the head with the turbo and manifolds already on it than to try to add the manifolds in the car or get the chains on the load leveler around the intake manifold. That headgasket would be the biggest thing to be worried about, right?

You are going to check the bearings aren't you? put a new oil pump in?
My concern is the amout of sludge could mean the oil rings will be gummed up. Do you have pics of the piston tops? are they completely covered in carbon or at the 1 and 6 oclock postion there clean?

Edit! You'd be stupid not the do the head gasket now, its a 10 minute job now or hours later, then you can look at the pistons.

[Koreth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman You are going to check the bearings aren't you? put a new oil pump in? My concern is the amout of sludge could mean the oil rings will be gummed up. Do you have pics of the piston tops? are they completely covered in carbon or at the 1 and 6 oclock postion there clean? Edit! You'd be stupid not the do the head gasket now, its a 10 minute job now or hours later, then you can look at the pistons.

I don't have the tools to check the bearings, what do I need for that? Is a new oil pump neceessary? It made a gurgling sound as the crank turned trying to get those stupid acessory drive pully bolts loose, so it sounds like it is still trying to (is capable of?) moving oil. Or am I just being stupid by trying to cut corners where I most definately shouldn't? I can resuse the pickup right?

Yeah, the head is comming off for cleaning and inspection and surfacing anyway, it'd be a good time to take a look at the pistons, and its an excuse to get the HG changed out.

I have some pics of the still dirty engine after all that degreaser, I'll post them later.

[turbovanman]

If you don't have the tools to check the bearings, then have someone do it. With the pan off, its a 10 minute job to check them.
The oil pump may make noise now but when under pressure so to speak, it may not work, there cheap, around $40, you wanna risk an engine for $40. Just clean out the pickup or again, buy a new one if you don't have a solvent tank.

I just need pics of the piston tops when you get the head off, mmkay!

[puppet]

Tear it down ... mark the slugs and get it cleaned.

[Koreth]

I was afraid I'd have to do that. Tearing it down, will I have to redo the rings? I want to know if I need to pick up the tools to re-ring or if using the old rings and giving the bores a good hone will do? Its the classic TD mentality. "how cheaply can I get away with before it blows up at the boost leves I want to run?"

Seriously, what are the tools needed to check bearing clearances and where can they be had?

I was defeated by the headbolts tonight. Time to buy a breaker bar.

Edit: I found this http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=37150

Good deal, and I think that will do nicely. If I need longer, I can alway go get a lenth of pipe

ok autozone will rent you a hone. put a deposit down and get it back when yu are done. To check the bearing clearancebuy some plasti guages, about 3 bucks a stick, and check em out. Put new rings and an oil pump. the rule in my family has always been if the oil pan comes of a new pump goes in regardless. i would hate to see you put all that time int installing an engine, just to pull it later with major probles.

[turbovanman]

When you post pics of your piston tops, I can give you some advice on whether or not to reuse them. As Puppet says, you can pull the slugs, clean everything and put it back together.

To check the bearings, you need plastiguage and a torque wrench, which you should have anyways,
You remove the main caps, inspect them for wear, damage, wipe off the oil, lay a little piece of PG, tighten down caps to spec, DO NOT turn the crank, remove the caps and measure the squish, thats your bearing clearance. Do this for the rods, one at a time, and you will know how bad it is or isn't. Your clearances should be .0015 to .003"

[Mr. Stroker]

I agree with Turbovanman you have to get a new oil pump its the only part of the engine that does not recieve filtered oil. and if you are not going to do a complete rebuild atleast take it to a machine shop and have it cleaned and new intermediate shaft bearings installed. while your there they can check the clyinders for taper and out-of-round to see if its even worth putting money into.

[Koreth]

I have a pair of torqe wrenches one is 3/8" drive, and measures in inch pounds up to 960 (80 ft-lbs) and one is 1/2" drive and goes up to 120 or 150 ft-lbs. All my sockets except for my axle nut socket are 3/8" drive. If the small wrench can't go high enough, will a 1/2 to 3/8 drive adapter significantly alter the torque reading? I know that cheater-bars are a no-no when it comes to using torque wrenches, but not about drive size adapters.

I'll add plastigauge to the list of parts/tools needed to be less in over my head.

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koreth I have a pair of torqe wrenches one is 3/8" drive, and measures in inch pounds up to 960 (80 ft-lbs) and one is 1/2" drive and goes up to 120 or 150 ft-lbs. All my sockets except for my axle nut socket are 3/8" drive. If the small wrench can't go high enough, will a 1/2 to 3/8 drive adapter significantly alter the torque reading? I know that cheater-bars are a no-no when it comes to using torque wrenches, but not about drive size adapters. I'll add plastigauge to the list of parts/tools needed to be less in over my head.

Those adapters won't affect your readings. The highest you need to go is around 110 ft/lbs so your good to go.

[als]

honeing with old rings not a good idea? oil pump/ rod bearings . at that point new gaskets/ seals. i run a 2.2 with 135,000 with one diff. piston/ had bent rod. with new pump and rod bearings. has 60psi cold 15 psi hot. thats oil presser. i still run 6,000 rpm shifts , so you can beat on a old motor. als

[Koreth]

Found a breaker bar in the toolbox (probably my dad's) thats so short it has no right to be called a breaker bar. But, the handle for my floor jack fits right around the end and is bout 2' long. Head bolts came right now. Hehe, breaker bars ROCK. I am going to have to get one.

My digital camera ran out of batteries, and there are no batteries left in the house, so no pics of the tops of the pistons just yet. I had the block up-side down on the engine stand to pull the balance shafts, and noticed that some of oil was left, pooled in the bores in the undersides of the pistons, #4 especially.

When I pulled the head, I found that all the pistons had a a layer of carbon, which is to be expected. #4 however, had its layer of carbon peeling off, and was rather oily around the edges. It looks like the oil caused the carbon to get loose. Does this mean that the rings are shot or is it simply because some oil was pooled in that bore? Looking at the cylinder walls, you can still see the crosshatch (did I spell that right) marks, so that means the hone is still good, right?

I'll have pics when I can get some batteries for my digital camera.

It was a good thing I pulled the head, the headgasket had started to swell and crack in the water jacket portions. It probably would have blown in short order after I started turning up the boost.

[MrBelvedere]

cleanlyness is next to godlyness the cleaner the better throw a new set of rings and bearings in it and have the crank cleaned and polished and have the block hot tanked also why take a chance on destriying a good engine

[turbovanman]

A layer of carbon is good but yeah, sounds like #4 rings are leaking a little oil. If your this far apart, you might as well rering it, you've gone to all this hassle. Some guys say don't hone and bang on new rings, others like me say to hone. I have never tried the no hone method but glhsken swears by no honing. Take your pic.
Oil in the pistons is normal, you don't get it all out when you drain it so when you flip the engine over, it will pool in the pistons now.

Oh, make sure to get the block deck checked for straightness, they are prone to warping.