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Engine Management, Fuel, Spark, EGTs, and Air/Fuel Ratios This forum includes general electrical, modification, tuning, repair, replacement, identification and restoration of all components mentioned above including SMEC, SBEC, Logic Modules, aftermarket engine management, etc. Nitrous oxide posts go in here. This is the place

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post #1 of 22 Old 10-22-2010, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Crazy SBEC-II Idea

I am trying to obtain the SBEC-II for the 2.5l MPI. I could try to flash a turbo ECU due to the scarecity of locating a MPI unit, but I got an idea...

I pulled a 1994 3.0 V6 SBEC-II at the yard, today. I compared it to my turbo controller. There is the extra driver transistors and supporting circuitry for cylinders 5 and 6.

Is there any reason that I could not flash the EEPROM with the MPI calibration? Has anybody tried this?
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post #2 of 22 Old 10-23-2010, 01:13 AM
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

What year did the SBEC-II come in? There are a few MPI TD's in the yard around here.
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post #3 of 22 Old 10-23-2010, 08:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

1984-1987 Logic Module & Power Module
1988-1989 Single Module Engine Controller (SMEC)
1990-1993 Single Board Engine Controller (SBEC)

Do you mean Turbo Dodge ECUs? What years?

If you are willing, and the years are good, I would pay you to pull and ship one. Let me know if you are willing and how much you would want.
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post #4 of 22 Old 10-23-2010, 08:32 PM
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

Just let me know what you are looking for specifically, I will go and look, and pull if needed. Cost could vary from 20 to 50 bucks depending on which yard I go to, so specifics will help in getting what you want.

I wouldn't have a problem grabbing stuff for you, I do it all the time, whatever pays for gas lol
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post #5 of 22 Old 10-29-2010, 10:37 AM
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangelhaft View Post
I am trying to obtain the SBEC-II for the 2.5l MPI. I could try to flash a turbo ECU due to the scarecity of locating a MPI unit, but I got an idea...

I pulled a 1994 3.0 V6 SBEC-II at the yard, today. I compared it to my turbo controller. There is the extra driver transistors and supporting circuitry for cylinders 5 and 6.

Is there any reason that I could not flash the EEPROM with the MPI calibration? Has anybody tried this?
From what I've noticed on the SBEC-II boards I've looked at, the factory had a ton of options for drivers. The V6 computers should have 6 injector drivers and 3 coil drivers. The questions is, does the 4 cylinder code use the same outputs for the drivers? You could try it and see.

The SBEC-II also should be flashable from the factory. The problem is, the programing voltage is 20V, and it has to be applied thru the Rx line. So programming is tricky. The Chrysler patent for flashing them (with the flash algorithm) is available on patents.google.com

Rob Lloyd
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post #6 of 22 Old 10-29-2010, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

If I were to try to flash an EEPROM with the MPI bin, I would socket the SBEC, for ease of programming. I have read through the Patent document for flashing the ECU through the diagnostic port.

I am currently removing all of the potting material from a 1993 4 cyl (P/N 4517652, REV E, ROM B4639557) SBEC-II, and a 1993 V6 SBEC-II for hardware comparison. I would back-engineer these units (Like I am doing with the traveler and mini trip computer modules), but the multilayered PCBs make that difficult. If only I had access to a CAT scanner... I do not want to compromise the two FFV controllers that I have because of their scarcety.

If anybody has any top and bottom photos of SBEC and SBEC-II circuit boards, without the potting material, I would like to see them.

I am also still looking for any information on the actual part numbers for Chrysler marked ICs.
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post #7 of 22 Old 11-04-2010, 09:32 AM
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

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Originally Posted by Mangelhaft View Post
If I were to try to flash an EEPROM with the MPI bin, I would socket the SBEC, for ease of programming. I have read through the Patent document for flashing the ECU through the diagnostic port.

I am currently removing all of the potting material from a 1993 4 cyl (P/N 4517652, REV E, ROM B4639557) SBEC-II, and a 1993 V6 SBEC-II for hardware comparison. I would back-engineer these units (Like I am doing with the traveler and mini trip computer modules), but the multilayered PCBs make that difficult. If only I had access to a CAT scanner... I do not want to compromise the two FFV controllers that I have because of their scarcety.

If anybody has any top and bottom photos of SBEC and SBEC-II circuit boards, without the potting material, I would like to see them.

I am also still looking for any information on the actual part numbers for Chrysler marked ICs.
The IC's are generally off-the-shelf. The exception might be the PIA controller. My assumption is that this is some sort of PLD, but figuring out which one? For the SBEC, it handles most of the I/O and also has a block of additional RAM in the 6000h range. Since the SBECII has more I/O available, I have to assume it uses a different PLD.

Even the SMEC has a PLD-type of chip (bus controller) for keeping the various on-board and external memory and interface chips in check.
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post #8 of 22 Old 01-26-2011, 10:18 AM
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

It is a possibility that a V6 SBEC-II could be flashed to just utilize the hardware required to power a 4 cylinder. Whether you can simply flash a 4 cylinder CAL and be done with it is to be discovered. Worst case scenario, I'd imagine, would just require some minor changes to the code in how it handles the output drivers. I need to start getting more involved in our electronics. I'd be a disgraced CE if I didn't.

What are your updates so far? Getting V6 SBEC-IIs to power MPI 4 cylinders would open up a whole new world in turbocharging 92+ cars!

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post #9 of 22 Old 01-27-2011, 03:30 PM
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoskalonMPI View Post
It is a possibility that a V6 SBEC-II could be flashed to just utilize the hardware required to power a 4 cylinder. Whether you can simply flash a 4 cylinder CAL and be done with it is to be discovered. Worst case scenario, I'd imagine, would just require some minor changes to the code in how it handles the output drivers. I need to start getting more involved in our electronics. I'd be a disgraced CE if I didn't.

What are your updates so far? Getting V6 SBEC-IIs to power MPI 4 cylinders would open up a whole new world in turbocharging 92+ cars!
The 3.0 V6 SBECII has 6 injector drivers and 1 coil driver installed. So, it CAN be reporgramed to run a TBI or Turbo I 4 cylinder. Whether or not the WG driver is present, I do not know. But, it would work with a manual boost controller.

The 3.3/3.8 V6 SBECII has 6 injector drivers and 3 coil drivers (lost-spark setup). So, it can be re-programmed to run the TBI 4cyl, the Turbo I 4cyl, or the TurboIII 4cyl. Again, I am not sure if the hardware for the WG solenoid driver is present or not.

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post #10 of 22 Old 01-27-2011, 11:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

If I am not mistaken, the wastegate selonoid is driven by pin-36 of the SBEC. On the 1993 4517652 REV E of the SBEC-II, pin 36 is driven by pin 1 of Z141. Z141 is Chrysler P/N 4517702. It is in a SIP-15 package, which is consistant with medium power/current driver ICs. This IC also drives SBEC pins 33 (Cruise Vaccum), 34 (A/C Clutch - via diode) ,35 (EGR Solenoid) ,36 (UNK) ,37 (UNK - via diode) ,51 (Auto shutdown - via diode), 52 (Evap purge selonoid), 53 (cruise vent).

I have the 2.5l TBI, 3.0l V-6, 3.3l V-6, and 5.2l V-8, and 5.9l V-8 versions of this SBEC-II board.

The 3.3l V-6 version appears to be the most populated. I have socketed a 3.3l V-6 version of this board and have loaded a 1993 2.5l TBI calibration into it. I am successfully running this set-up.

This spring, I will be burning the Mexican 2.5 MPFI calibration and loading it to the board. I will be adding the MPFI (Turbo) intake and turbo distributor, with the hall effect sensors (both cam and crank posisition) to the engine. I will be modifing the engine wiring harness to accomodate the extra three injectors, cam posisition sensor, as well as the 4-cyl coil pack (for future modification). I see no reason why this set-up will not work. If I can successfully locate and merge the coil pack driver code with the MPFI code, I will attempt to run the engine with the coil pack, and using the distributer only for the cam and crank data.

Any thoughts?


Here are the scans (non-digitized) versions of the board:
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post #11 of 22 Old 01-28-2011, 01:27 AM
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

if your that good with wiring just MS the thing, personal challenge or something? MS 1 in kit form is dirt cheap and you seam to have those skills by the looks of it.

Keep in mind your going to want to run a 2 piece with a big plenum on a NA engine. Think the 1 piece sucks with a turbo wait till you run it NA.......

I watched a Local take a 2 piece and run it MPI with a reworked turbo cal. Ran good as an NA but the RPM range sucked. The old carb setup was faster... The torque though on a real heavy Spirit may make it worth it vs the TBI.

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post #12 of 22 Old 01-28-2011, 08:29 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

The Pope --> I have considered and researched MegaSquirt. The issue that I have is the loss of the traveler features.
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post #13 of 22 Old 01-28-2011, 09:17 AM
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

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The Pope --> I have considered and researched MegaSquirt. The issue that I have is the loss of the traveler features.
older Mopars used divorced computers, like travelers, trans controllers, and ABS. The traveler uses the speed sensor to get mileage readings, which can be had off the speedo. So your stock computer is still there it just won't be controlling the engine anymore.
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post #14 of 22 Old 01-28-2011, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

The trip computer part of the traveler uses the speed/distance sensor from the transmission, just as the gauge cluster's odometer does. However, the fuel usage data comes through the CCD data bus, at least with the later K-Car travelers. The earlier traveler computers got their fuel usage data from a SMEC output that was synchronized with the injectors. Regardless of where the fuel usage data comes from, the traveler's MPU uses the speed sensor data AND the fuel usage data to calculate the fuel economy.

This is one of the reasons why I am not very interested in using the MS platform. Besides, what is a better mod that adapting OEM hardware to do something different, than to buy a current production module. An example is I could run Windows software on a Unix machine using an emulator (slow performance due to code translation), run a Microsoft OS (expenssive and supporting poor privacy and corporate practices), or I could write a software module (more efficient, less costly, and, I'll be it more nerdy, but more respect in the programming world.
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post #15 of 22 Old 01-28-2011, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Crazy SBEC-II Idea

I forgot to ask, why iis there a consencious that the one-piece intake performs poorly in comparison to the the two-Piece? Why did Chrysler continue to produce and use poor performing parts?
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