Nitro Injection.......MMMmmm nitro

[TFMech]

I thougt this might be a good topic to get started or if any wants to try it with there alcohol injection. I will say I have not personaly tried the set up only because I have been to busy to put an alcohol injection setup on the omni. Here is where it comes from and the skinny on the setup. I was talking with a friend at Pomona last year about turbo cars. When we got on the subject somehow. He layed out the setup he was running on his turbo mustang. First the car is a twin turbo small block mustang running 35psi of boost making right in the neiborhood of 1000HP. He said while on the dyno he was having problems with detonation. How do you fix detonation cool it down with some alky. He puts alky injection on it and hey it stops detonating. The only problem was once there was enough alky to stop all the detonation. It cooled the exhaust to much and the turbos would not keep presure up. How do you heat the exhaust back up and keep the cooling effect of the alky. Dump a little nito in alky tank turn on the injector above 5psi and haul ass. He says to start with a little like 10% or less and try it with a 70 jet in the alky injector. When you do this you will need to turn down the boost to compensate for the nitro. It is a trial and error process just keep a close eye on the EGTs and you will be golden. Start with the boost turned to around 5psi add a little nitro to the alky injection and drive it. If the EGTs are good add a little more and so on and so on. You dont want to and much more then a 30 to 40 percent nitro to alky mix. Then start adding boost till you get the right EGT and if you get the right EGT with 30% nitro in the injector and only 5psi so be it. Dont get greedy. Here is the gravy part of the deal and what makes this setup so sweet. What happens when you run out of go juice in the injector....nothing your junk just slows down because it is only runing 5-10psi. No you dont go lean because you were using the alky to cool down 25psi of boost. No you dont turn your pistons into ashtrays. Does it work...like I said I have not personaly tried it yet....I will try it sometime this summer if I get a chance to put the alky injector on the omni I am not scared I know my friend. His mustang made 1150HP on the dyno with 15psi and 40%nitro in the injector where it had to have 35psi to do the same before. So give me your thoughts or if you want to try it out on your car give me a shout I can supply the nitro. You will just have to come down to memphis.

[TFMech]

Oh yeah I forgot my favorite part of the whole thing. What sort of alky injector setup do you think the 1150 horse mustang is running. It is a regular waterman injector body with a right infront of th the inlet of the turbo. A five gallon fuel cell can one of those cool little square 15psi fuel pumps from Autozone. You would ask dosent the alky mixure get stuck in the intercooler. You get the answer "na it finds its way through" to the tune of 1150hp with 15psi.

[Ondonti]

I dont want my IQ to drop so I wont play with that stuff :P

[tkelly27]

Having fluid pre-compressor can cause damage to the blades. Properly setup small block fords can make 1000hp on 91 octane pump gas...
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/ind...?topic=39883.0
Not trying to get down on you or your friend, just kinda skeptical. I do think it's really interesting that nitro can help keep his turbo spooled up, if you try it and find good results let us know.

[turbodave/neon]

I have found that I could not excede 2% nitro by volume. It would fall out of suspension if I ran higher mixes. Granted I was using cheap methanol.

[TFMech]

The mustang is a blown through carburated 289 if he reliable aftermarket fuel injection was available at the time he would have had it on there. It is a little on the old school side he has not driven it in a while. His latest prodject is high horse power Duramax diesels for off shore racing. Yeah the liquid can cause problems with turbo, condencing in the intercooler and lines and maybe other problems. I was just telling the story of where the idea came from. Is his mustang real and does it run on that setup? Yes it is real, yes it does run that setup. I sure it could make more HP if it was done with todays technology. I would have to call and get the exact year he built it but if memory servs me right he built it in the late 80s or early 90s. It is up to you to believe me or not or be skeptical about it.

[TFMech]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbodave/neon I have found that I could not excede 2% nitro by volume. It would fall out of suspension if I ran higher mixes. Granted I was using cheap methanol.

How were you injecting it as far as the injection setup? What sort of nozzle, jet were you useing? What were you running the set up on?

[TFMech]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti I dont want my IQ to drop so I wont play with that stuff :P

It only causes cancer in California according to the tag on the barrel LOL

[TFMech]

I like the idea of this setup because I can turn the boost down get my heap a little further from the edge.

[tkelly27]

A 289?!?! That thing is a beast! However, there is still something fishy going on with his setup.

"He puts alky injection on it and hey it stops detonating. The only problem was once there was enough alky to stop all the detonation. It cooled the exhaust to much and the turbos would not keep presure up."

I guess I'm missing how a car running on pure alcohol could ever hope to spool a turbo if this was so. Unless he's got it so rich that raw alcohol is coming out the exhuast, which might be possible if he's just got a nozzle blasting out in front of the compressor. If that's whats going on, all he'd need to do is to get a proper alky injection setup and he could dial in the alky and ditch the nitro. Although I was reading nitro can help add power when you're already way way rich because of it's self contained oxygen content.

Also, assuming the alky was the thing keeping the boost low, it still has all the inherent problems of alky injection. As soon as your tank has run out, you're back to not having anything cooling your stuff down and adios pistons. Not that I won't be having an alky setup on my van someday.

Just stirring the pot! If it works, use it : D

[Ondonti]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TFMech It only causes cancer in California according to the tag on the barrel LOL

Feel free to take a sniff

[TFMech]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ondonti Feel free to take a sniff

The real kicker is that you can drink the stuff. Yeah I woiuld be suspecious of the new chinese stuff but I know that the VP tasted like pepermint schnops. Yes if you drink a gallon of it I am sure it will kill you. If you are scared come on down to memphis and I will show you how it is done. The driver would probably be the first to show you how it is done. If it really caused all sorts of problems people like our crew cheif and our old assitiant that have been racing for 20-30years would be dead or decrepid by now. We will be at Las Vegas testing this weekend if anyone wants to come out and get a little second hand nitro. I guess as long as the temp gets above the 50 degrees they are forcasting.

[TFMech]

Tkelly27, I probalby dont have to verse you on how turbos work but a quick refresh might be in order. Exhaust manifold pressure is the key here. As exhaust manifold pressure reaches zero the potental to make HP become expodential. This is only if you are spinning the turbo fast enough to still make boost. The problem was that when the engine reached the 1150hp mark they were at there limit making 35psi with an exhaust pressure that was getting down closer to zero. I.E. no back pressure. When you put alky injection on it you do it to cool the mix which also cools the exhaust. Heat makes pressure if you dont have enough heat in exhaust to make pressure in the manifold then the turbo slows down and will not hold pressure. What do you do add nitro to get the heat back to get your exhaust pressure back up.

[TFMech]

"Although I was reading nitro can help add power when you're already way way rich because of it's self contained oxygen content."

You said it right there. Your engine is way rich when you go under boost you have to be. You are adding the alchohol nitro mix suplemetery to the 93 octane the engine is already running on. This is also why you can turn down the boost the power nitro adds makes up for the boost you take away. The key to the idea here is that if nitro is adding power and you take the nitro away your car just slows down. With Boost on the other hand if you are running high boost with alky injection to keep it cool and the alky runs out. You turn your pistons into ashtrays. The reasoning here is that it is safer to suplement the power with nitro then it is with boost. He sort of stumbled on to the idea that the nitro would add enough power compensate for the boost that is why he turned the boost down. I.E. engine made about the same or little more power with half the boost injecting it with nitro/alky.

[tkelly27]

Oh boy, I feel so much smarter now...

Unless he's got some kinda super sweet VNT setup I doubt that he is at 0 back pressure, he's probably closer to 1:1 boost to back pressure ratio at best. Turbo F1 cars run as low back pressure as possible (much lower than his) and they run purely alcohol, *gasp* how do they stay spooled up?! How do they even get spooled to begin with?! The humanity! He probably could have kept the nitro out of it by pulling some of standard gas from his carb to make up for the uber rich condition, but then he wouldn't have stumbled onto the fact that he could make more power with nitro.

I'll say it again, if you're dumping so much alky into an engine that it is de-spooling your turbo there is something very wrong with your setup. Maybe it's clogging up his IC, maybe the compressor has to pressurize the liquid, maybe it's actually getting into the cylinder and making it so pig rich that the engine can hardly get the gunk ignited. One way or another, something is very wrong without the addition of the nitro.

Nitro adds power, not arguing that. Kinda like liquid N2O is kind of a cool idea. If you're looking at using it for the power gains, why not just inject pure Nitro, or a higher nitro:meth concentration to boost the power even more? I guess I also read that nitro has a tendancy to detonate as well, so you need the alky in it too right?

*edit* so you're saying turn your boost down to a safe level on 93 octane and use the nitro to add more power? Ok, that doesn't have all the inherent problems with alky alone, and does have built in failsafes. Keep us posted. I'm still not gonna touch the stuff