How much boost without IC

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by whistlin' Interesting hypothesis but with no hard evidence that's all it is. I do have the one piece, I do inject before the throttle body. No problems with puddling. Good discussion though.

Spend a little time at the drag strip and you'll see what I'm taking about. Not a lot of people run extra fuel at the TB, most run extra fuel in at the head. The experiance with this comes from nitrous V8s. The 2.2 fires better and is less likely to back fire, it may be some time before someone has a real problem. There is no way for you to see puddling in the 1 piece, have you ever seen one cut open? Fumes ignite not the puddle itself, but the puddling cause more fumes that last. The Nitrous guys with V8s get this type of problem, with less ignition they back fire or pop through the intake more often. A friend of mine lost the hood and the carb off of his Chevy from this. His intake was wet with extra fuel, the engine back fired in the intake and blew the carb into quarters and the hood clean off the car. Angelo Tayler, an old TD racer blew his over the valve cover IC up. I can't give you any hard evidence that if I step in front of a bus that I'll get killed. But there is a pretty good discussion backing up that the bus will most likely kill me

[whistlin']

Yes I did purchase a one piece a couple years ago just to disect, I know the area that you're talking about.
I enjoyed the analogy about the bus, but I don't think the two are really comparable. So you have one instance where someone running a log blew up their intercooler and guys running nitrous on their V-8's have had problems.
I don't see the correlation between these and the discussion on water/alky injection.
Don't get me wrong Pope, I respect you and enjoy reading many of your ideas. I am even running the PT lifters with washers I purchased from you. I just can't understand why there are so many naysayers when it comes to water injection, especially when none of them have run it themselves.
Please find me someone who has run a good setup like the Devilsown progressive and hasn't been happy with the way their car ran. I know people who have never ran one will come out of the woodwork with negatives, but that's about all you'll find.

[The Pope]

I actually love methonal, but I would run it all with E85 not just injection. In many cases people can't buy it, so methonal injection is nice. As far as the 1 piece goes. Those things are horrible untill you cut them up and redo them. Methonal burns and is as chemical intercooler. So what I don't under stand is why people don't use it instead of water always? I've seen a lot of race cars that run it with methonal. At that point people run bigger turbos and over 20 PSI. My self I have had a water injection system, but it only worked to 15 PSI. My friends build GNs, they run the injection on there engines. The FI model without an IC is a great place for it and they even use the washer bottle for the windshield. The more water they add the less power they make. Both ways don't detonate but the power changes.

For a race car I was considering the same type system. But with changes. Like adding the methenol with nitrous fogger nozels near the head. Keeping the intake dry. Then you can run 2 stages with both ends of the nozel. A serious methenol injection can be made and used to the fullest. In the end I may not run it for some time in a 4 banger. My Challenger is another great place for it with a 8-71 blower build. In that case no IC and a more caveman fuel system, a little help is nice.

So there are positives. Injecting a log T1 or any other T1 and not using an intercooler. You can build a race car and not have to worry about filling the IC lines or having pressure drop issues from the smaller ICs.

The negivtives. The systems need to stay filled. On a street car you only need to forget one time real bad to nuke your engine. So they are a race system to be safe. E85 allows the same effect, but with a dry intake and you don't run out on the street. Water doesn't burn out right, your trying to force the use of hydrogen with water injection. Methenol burns.

Then comes the engines. Our intakes suck real bad, you can barely mod them for dry air to flow better. The 1 piece barely keeps up with a stock G casting on a flow bench dry. Wet the intakes flow 20-30% less volume. On other engines you can mave more than enough intake to feed an engine anyway, our 8v engines are hurting for intake flow baddly near stock.

If I wanted the cheapest way to get power with a T1 car the Devils own is a good idea. Big exhaust and a FWD stage 2 computer with cutout removed. Then a stock turbo can pump 20 PSI with it for racing. Won't make as much power as a correctly built engine with IC, but enough for a 12 second ET with an L body with a lower MPH. So your write, most will say to go a different direction. There is a place for it and depending on what you have for a car and your wanting to go bracket racing, this kit is something to look at. The problems with this hobby stem from risky building though. People use boost controlers and other things that can destroy there engines. Once these cars blow up they go to the junk yard most of the time now. If you know what your doing, boost controlers and other things are not bad. But for most people out there they need a "completely safe" setup. This means a IC and a custom cal like FWDs. Then when they add crap fuel the engine pulls timing and boost. My self I've known many younger people that blow up there engines and thats it, TDs are junk. One of which is a guy named Tony that worked for me, he is now older and TD.com. He blew up his turbo Lancer 4 times and kept changing pistons. All because he was using a grainger valve and running too much boost. So this sytem is great for someone mature enough to handle it, not for kids starting out. I could go far with little money and a G valve with this injection. But I wouldn't run the boost with a low tank or do other foolish things because I have the experiance. For those experianced people out there, they know better. So they either are going for big power like me, past that type of kit. Or they are building a car with there kid, which equals cheap speed. I'll end up doing this with my boys, and there cars will hit trees and anything else in there way. The devils own goes right on and right off when the car is smashed lol, but they won't set it up. So these are something to make make power, they do work. They are just considered caveman to many because it was used in the 70s. But the caveman methods with boost controlers and injection can make for some really cheap speed if you have the talent to use them right. In the end it has a place and there should be a sticky regarding pros and cons to this type of thing, water injection, methenol injection and E85.

[1984Rampage]

Just wondering. Where do you inject the alky/water in a log manifold? I plan on running alky/water injection on my logged turbo rampage.... When its finished.

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1984Rampage Just wondering. Where do you inject the alky/water in a log manifold? I plan on running alky/water injection on my logged turbo rampage.... When its finished.

I would take off the EGR thing on the compressor of the turbo. Then either tap it and pu in a fitting or add a block off plate with a fitting. Then your spraying it right at the compressor and it'll atomize it nice. Another option is that you don't need a system to run it. You can watch it with a scanner and run the stuff in there with just a washer bottle. You just end up matching boost to the flow of the pump.

[whistlin']

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope But for most people out there they need a "completely safe" setup.

I don't think there is such a thing...LOL.
E85 requires a fuel system set up for it and availability is a problem for most. If you're talking about injecting it seperately you better know what you're doing because of the flammability issue. Methanol and E85 are both fuel. But if lack of fuel isn't your problem and detonation is, then water or water/meth is a wonderful addition.
I ran a volvo intercooler and couldn't run over 12psi unless I wanted to buy the high octane fuel. Of course the only 93 octane available was 25 miles away the opposite direction of where I normally drive. The devilsown allowed me to run 89 octane, advance my timing, and get rid of the volvo intercooler since it was a plumbing nightmare. I check my oil everyday, I also check my washer fluid at the same time. Pretty simple. You can also get a sensor to warn of a low level.
Some people need to run manifold boost directly to the wastegate, pretty foolproof. Others want to push the limits. That's fine as long as they know the risks involved. No matter how you achieve the extra power there are risks.

[streetvan1]

Is it possible to simply inject the methanol/water mixture into the rubber intake tube ahead of the turbo inlet completely? Hehehe. I'm a lazy bastard, I know.

[whistlin']

Some people will swear by doing it that way so I guess it would be alright. I haven't tried it so can't speak from experience. If you're running an intercooler it's not recomended since the water will fall out of suspension in the cooler.

[t1turbo]

Hey mr. Pope! Yea, this is tony! I only blew that turbo lancer up 3 times and it was because you gave me some bad 20% over injectors that where clogged or something and didn't flow enough fuel for the 15 psi I was pushing! Now I admit It would spike to 16 psi every now and then. But because of Robs advice and teaching I now have a 86 shelby charger that runs flat 14's and 99mph. on 14 psi. No IC, no meth, no 2o, no big exhaust. Just a 686 cam and an MSD. ignition. I punch out the cat. but the exhaust is still the same. But that MSD. made more of a difference than a g-valve. Not to get off the subject....

[Redstar]

I found this article/site dealing with water and methanol injection very helpful.

Waterinjection :: View topic - Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers

I have a TI log mani and am thinking about trying WI before the compressor in order to turn up the boost a little more. Currently running 10psi, colder plugs and 92 octane with no issues.