gas versus eth/meth/e85

[jim34]

Found an article surfin around thats got some good info



Ethanol: ethanol fuel - alternative fuel - ethanol and engine performance - flex fuel - promoting ethanol

[the.palmetto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim34 Found an article surfin around thats got some good info Ethanol: ethanol fuel - alternative fuel - ethanol and engine performance - flex fuel - promoting ethanol

Hey, good stuff! I was going to start a thread on this topic but you beat me to it!

Does anyone have any experiences with running ethanol blends? Since an E85 is about the same octane rating as a 110 race gas, it seems like a good substitute. Are there any modifications we would need to run it in our TD's? I have a 255lb Walbro pump that handle just about anything and +40's. I also within the last year replaced the entire tank assembly. I'm not sure if it's safe but if anyone has advice on how to cross over to E85 that would be swell.

[bgbmxer]

i plan on running it at about the 300 horse rating. it seems like the way to go higher octane way cheaper and colder it just make sense other than you have to use 30% more of it to do the same job. so with that being said u woud need a new cal for one and for me the +40s are not big enough for 300 horse i will need like 85Lb per hour for that and the 255 fuel pump is only good to 400 horse on e85

[the.palmetto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgbmxer i plan on running it at about the 300 horse rating. it seems like the way to go higher octane way cheaper and colder it just make sense other than you have to use 30% more of it to do the same job. so with that being said u woud need a new cal for one and for me the +40s are not big enough for 300 horse i will need like 85Lb per hour for that and the 255 fuel pump is only good to 400 horse on e85

So you saying an engine needs alot more Ethanol and burns it faster than a traditional Gasoline? 30% more? I can't see how +40's are not enough, that's wild.

I need to know if the rest of the fuel system is capable of handling the Ethanol in terms of deteriorating the fuel system components. Anyone have answers on that?



I have just read somewhere that turbo cars with ODB II can really efficiently run a 33% Ethanol mix but I guess that doesn't really apply to us since we all have ODB I. If you can adjust your fuel pressure that would be the ticket though. I guess having a piggyback to adjust fuel curves wouldn't hurt either. An E33 blend would be easier to achieve than E85 as far as fuel consumption goes. Something to think about. I've read alot of positive things about running Ethanol so far.

Also I found info saying A/F's should be in the 6.9:1s for E85 or .7 lambda for max power rich. For an E33 blend, I guess it would be safe to run 9 or 10:1. Still seems like a good idea to check this out further...

[bgbmxer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by the.palmetto So you saying an engine needs alot more Ethanol and burns it faster than a traditional Gasoline? 30% more? I can't see how +40's are not enough, that's wild. I need to know if the rest of the fuel system is capable of handling the Ethanol in terms of deteriorating the fuel system components. Anyone have answers on that? I have just read somewhere that turbo cars with ODB II can really efficiently run a 33% Ethanol mix but I guess that doesn't really apply to us since we all have ODB I. If you can adjust your fuel pressure that would be the ticket though. I guess having a piggyback to adjust fuel curves wouldn't hurt either. An E33 blend would be easier to achieve than E85 as far as fuel consumption goes. Something to think about. I've read alot of positive things about running Ethanol so far. Also I found info saying A/F's should be in the 6.9:1s for E85 or .7 lambda for max power rich. For an E33 blend, I guess it would be safe to run 9 or 10:1. Still seems like a good idea to check this out further...

for the air fuel ratio if you get an inovative its setup to handle any fuel you throw at it and from what i read will still be in the 11 to 14 number range cause it converts it.

as for the fuel hurting the lines ethanol will not eat anything away methanol will. but i would replace the dirty lines since the ethanol has cleaning properties

+ 40s might make 250 horse from what i have read lol.

heres a nice read with more info I switched to E85 - $2.19 a gallon - Long Island Locations - RX7Club.com

[Una]

I'm running 100lb injectors with E85. They are supposed to be good to 450hp on this fuel before they max out. I'm at 265hp now and they hit about 50% duty cycle, so it sounds about right. You do need 25% more ethanol than you do normal gas, hence the bigger injectors. Many of the guys in the Neons forum have converted to E85, and several are running 160lb injectors and making really large power numbers. Generally, the Walbro 255 is good for the 100lb injectors, when you step past that, you either need two of those pumps, or one bad arse pump.
If you have an EGT installed, it's going to blow your mind when you switch to E85, the EGT's drop dramatically. :)
And yes, if you leave a wideband O2 sensor in it's default settings (like I did) you get normal gas AFR numbers, so you still cruise at what appears to be 14.7:1, you still run at 11.5:1 under boost, etc.. But it's actually 9.6:1 under cruise, and something like 7:1 under boost.. The reason for this is that the widebands don't measure actual AFR, they measure lambda, which is % of stoich. Stoich being the perfect mixture (14.7 for gas for example). Then it converts that stoich number to AFR. By default, it uses the gasoline AFR scale, rather than the E85 AFR scale..
Also, the octane.. Straight 100% ethanol is something like 111 or 117 octane (can't recall, since I don't run it), E85 is 105 octane using the standard ron+mon/2 method. E85 is awesome for converting an N/A motor to turbo, thanks to the extra octane.
When I switched to E85 in January, it was $1.53/gallon.. But gasoline was about $1.88 at the time.. Now gas is right around $3.00 and E85 is $2.13.. My nearest station is 60 miles away, so I have a 55 gallon drum in my garage that I keep a local supply in.. :)
With the 2.4 in my Omni, and a 3.50fd trans, on gasoline I got 30-32mpg. On E85 with the same motor, but with a turbo, and a 3.85fd trans (old one blew up) I get 26mpg.

[jim34]

Im seeing more and more stations having e85 available got to get some bigger injectors and study up on d cal, ive been skeptical of alky but everything I see is all positive and if worse came to worse we could make our own plus we dont have to give our money to people who want to blow us up

[the.palmetto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jim34 Im seeing more and more stations having e85 available got to get some bigger injectors and study up on d cal, ive been skeptical of alky but everything I see is all positive and if worse came to worse we could make our own plus we dont have to give our money to people who want to blow us up

It takes alot to convert to an alky setup and it's not really expedient for us to run it unless you have big big power. I know the full on race motors at the track will run alky and don't need coolant because it does such a good job at cooling everything.

I will look into bigger injectors, that sounds like a pimp setup. E85 seems like the way to go. That would eliminate the need to get a fuel cell for the sole purpose of having race fuel and no extra modifation would really be needed at that point.

I have an Innovate Wideband so I'm covered.

[bgbmxer]

it runs colder which makes more power also there are alot of pluses to it. i can run an almost race setup on the street is why im chosing it.

[the.palmetto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnaClocker I'm running 100lb injectors with E85. They are supposed to be good to 450hp on this fuel before they max out. I'm at 265hp now and they hit about 50% duty cycle, so it sounds about right. You do need 25% more ethanol than you do normal gas, hence the bigger injectors. Many of the guys in the Neons forum have converted to E85, and several are running 160lb injectors and making really large power numbers. Generally, the Walbro 255 is good for the 100lb injectors, when you step past that, you either need two of those pumps, or one bad arse pump.

Hey Una, where did you get your injectors from? On both FWD-P and TU the biggest injectors they have are +40's, which I already have. The +40's are only good for 53lb/hr. If I expect to get in the 350-400hp range, I guess I at least need 100lb injectors, if not what the Neon guys are running.

I already have a 255 Walbro, are you saying that's not good enough for the numbers I want to run? If not, what can I do to install a second one?

[bgbmxer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by the.palmetto Hey Una, where did you get your injectors from? On both FWD-P and TU the biggest injectors they have are +40's, which I already have. The +40's are only good for 53lb/hr. If I expect to get in the 350-400hp range, I guess I at least need 100lb injectors, if not what the Neon guys are running. I already have a 255 Walbro, are you saying that's not good enough for the numbers I want to run? If not, what can I do to install a second one?

look again tu has 85#per hour injectors. the walbro is good to around four hundred on e85

[the.palmetto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgbmxer look again tu has 85#per hour injectors. the walbro is good to around four hundred on e85

Oh for real? I'd rather go with 100's though just to be on the safe side. Go big or go home at that point, cuz I have the capacity to run 400hp on the setup I'm hooking up. So I want injectors that can handle that for E85.

I am still trippin out over how awesome this sounds. If I would have known about this sooner, I would have bought 100lb injectors instead of +40's to begin with. I am excited to try this out as soon as my rebuild is finished.

[Una]

Yeah, I went with 100's for the same reason, room to grow. No point buying two sets of injectors..
As for where to buy them, DIYAutotune.com is one of this sites sponsors, they sell them (1000cc) injectors for $59/each. Pretty much the best deal anywhere. :) They flow 1000cc at 43psi, I run them at 55psi which makes them 1120cc or just a hair over 100lb.. ;) I told MegaSquirt they were 1120cc and had to do zero retuning when I switched from gas with 22lb injectors to E85 with these beasts.. :) It was nice. (Granted, I added the turbo at the same time, so I did have to tune the boost table, but I'm talking cold starts, warm restarts, the cruise table, etc..)

[the.palmetto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnaClocker Yeah, I went with 100's for the same reason, room to grow. No point buying two sets of injectors.. As for where to buy them, DIYAutotune.com is one of this sites sponsors, they sell them (1000cc) injectors for $59/each. Pretty much the best deal anywhere. :) They flow 1000cc at 43psi, I run them at 55psi which makes them 1120cc or just a hair over 100lb.. ;) I told MegaSquirt they were 1120cc and had to do zero retuning when I switched from gas with 22lb injectors to E85 with these beasts.. :) It was nice. (Granted, I added the turbo at the same time, so I did have to tune the boost table, but I'm talking cold starts, warm restarts, the cruise table, etc..)

I am pretty interested in Megasquirt. I hear alot of people on the forum talking about how great it is and the tunability of it. Is it pretty expensive? How hard is it to learn how to use properly and become a good tuner with it?

[thedon809]

Quote:

Originally Posted by the.palmetto I am pretty interested in Megasquirt. I hear alot of people on the forum talking about how great it is and the tunability of it. Is it pretty expensive? How hard is it to learn how to use properly and become a good tuner with it?

Megasquirt can be cheap if you buy the kit where you put it all together yourself. The one thats all put together is like 400. Again diyautotune.com has megasquirt too. If you want to tune yourself and you have a 2.2/2.5 I would try d cal. You can burn your own chips and it will be cheaper and you don't have to mess with wiring or anything.