Garage Storage Organization and Garage Cabinets

tonyz2897 · **correction % for alcohol as a fuel?**

I'm planning on doing away with the misting nozzles I'm using for alcohol injection now in favor of a NOS Fogger nozzle so I can change jetting to tune.
Does anybody know the relationship between alcohol and gasoline as far as the percentage increase in fuel it takes to support a given horsepower? I've been working the #'s through using 50% as my correction factor but this is just a figure I pulled out of the air. I'd really like to find a correct % so that I can figure out what jets to buy tomorrow when I buy the nozzle.
Thanks,
Tony

TRRBOJEEP · 04-22-2005, 09:18 AM

I guess nobody knows?

You'll have to sort it out and let us know your findings so we can all upgrade to NOS nozzles. I think I'm going to remove my intake and drill it out for "port injection". One nozzle in each runner, just behind the fuel injectors.

tonyz2897 · 04-22-2005, 10:53 AM

I bought the nozzle and a jet assortment so as soon as I can get it in, I'll start on the rich side and work my way down slowly. There's gotta be a set % more alcohol necessary than gas, I'm just having a hard time finding the number. If I can figure out what it is, I'd imagine that I could use a regular nitrous jetting calculator and just multiply the horsepower I want to support by the percentage more alcohol it takes then add the result back to the original horsepower. This should give me a horsepower # I could plug in to the calculator to determine jet size based on a certain ammount of boost (figuring 7 hp per psi for a close to stock setup).

Here's an example based on the 50% figure I pulled out of the air.
Lets say I want to run 30 psi and I'm going to rely on the alcohol to support the last 15. using the 7 hp per psi rule of thumb, I'd need to support 105 hp with the alcohol. Now I take 105 hp and multiply that by .50 (50%) which gives me 52.5.
Now I add that back to 105 which gives me 157.5. which should be about right to figure jet sizing for alcohol on a gasoline based calculator.
I'm using this one. http://www.azsupersport.com/nitrousjetcalc.asp
I set the fuel pressure to 65 (95 psi pump minus the 30 psi of boost), set the predicted power level to 157.5 and run the calculator. The result is that I should need a .79 mm fuel jet. to support 105 hp on alcohol (or 157.5 on gas).
This is all worthless until I can find the right % to use as a correction but should be good for getting "pretty close" once I do. The neat thing is that it should work for anybody as long as they have an idea how much horsepower they want to support above what the gasoline part of the fuel system is handeling.
Sorry for the long post,
Tony

TRRBOJEEP · 04-22-2005, 11:23 AM

The theory sounds good. I'd like to shoot for about 50 additonal hp supported by my alky system. Thats about all my trany will put up with before gears are bouncing off the road below me!

tonyz2897 · 04-22-2005, 11:25 AM

Found some good information here: http://www.drwtransmission.com/gnpage.htm
Alot of specifics toward the bottom of the page about the chemical makeup and behavior of alcohol as a fuel.
It's looking like 30% richer is the accepted norm, so the 50% figure I came up with should keep me well on the safe side for a starting point.
Tony

QKsilverF1 · 04-22-2005, 07:18 PM

just be careful not to inject tooo much or you will get cylinder wash and possilbly blow your motor

tonyz2897 · 04-23-2005, 03:14 PM

Speaking of too much, I got it installed and tested. With this nozzle, I'm back to a 1 stage setup. The nitrous side of the nozzle isn't fit to spray fuel.

Think waterfall. And that's with the smallest jet I have in it.
On the lighter side, the 40 jet in the fuel side is rich enough to make it light the 10 light and blubber at 22 psi. Probably enough fuel there for several more pounds of boost.

If I had it to do again, I'd skip the fogger nozzle and go with something like the single line fan spray nozzles. As I recall, they're about half the price and still have changable jets.
Tony

tonyz2897 · **wow.**

My boost gauge has been acting a bit screwy since I started bringing the boost past about 18 psi and I've had the suspicion that it was due to where it was connected. The PO had it T'd into the vac. line for the PCV valve. I was suspicious that the PCV valve might be leaking a bit and that was causing the gauge to read wrong. I moved the connection to the source for my bov and with no other changes, boost is now 27 psi

(actually has been, but now I know it).
Before, it would spike to 23-25 and then fall immediately back to 18, maybe even as far down as 15 depending on how fast the rpm's came up. I knew this couldn't be right due to the way the car felt.
I guess I'm pretty lucky I went ahead and jetted extremely rich.
Tony

edit: from my previous post, 40 jet = .040 which works out to over 1 mm.

QKsilverF1 · 04-23-2005, 07:40 PM

bad times

tonyz2897 · 04-23-2005, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QKsilverF1

bad times

I don't know about all that. I was pretty bummed because I was having a hard time getting the boost past where it was. I was shooting for 27-30 and had the fuel for it. I was just alot closer than I thought from the pcv valve causing the gauge to read low.
Tony

QKsilverF1 · 04-24-2005, 01:36 AM

how do you get traction, my tires spin in 1st and 2nd with a quaife and solid motor mounts at 19psi, mabye its that talon IC, that thing doesnt flow that well

tonyz2897 · 04-24-2005, 02:23 PM

Well, for traction it's an automatic running 235/60/15 M&H "Muscle Car" DOT slicks and a high/low boost control.
I don't know where you got your information about the Talon IC's not flowing good, but it's dead wrong. If you look at the intercooler flow test that Gus did here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~turbogus2/intercoolers.html
you'll see that compared to alot of the other popular choices for intercoolers, the talon cooler actually does flow quite well.
The drawback to the talon cooler isn't that it doesn't flow good, it's that it doesn't cool as well as some of the larger units. This isn't as big a deal to me since I'm getting the additional charge cooling from the alcohol as it would be to somebody trying to run high boost without alky.
Tony

tonyz2897 · 04-25-2005, 04:38 PM

Just to do a real world test so I'm not quoting Gus or Dempsey about the flow characteristics of the talon IC, I moved the vac. line for my boost gauge from the throttlebody to the barb on the compressor housing to get a reading of what the turbo was actually making vs. what the manifold is getting. I knew the Talon coolers flowed pretty good, but I was still surprised. To make 27 psi at the manifold, the turbo is making 29 psi. Only a 2 psi pressure drop at that boost level is pretty impressive out of that small of a cooler. I'm even still using the stock 1 7/8" inlet and outlet.
Tony