New Shift Kit for 404, 413 and 670's released

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqueflite Hey, I don't want to get too technical, I'll sound like some geek Maybe it's too late for that. Ya, this may happen for those who have retarded enough cars that are getting full spool at half throttle. For the more sane cars, they'll notice that giving it "normal" gas, the car will be in high gear a little sooner. Chad

Not making fun,

I prefer not to read myself but do, thats how I learn. If I read a manual, I say screw it and then go thru it on a workbench, its easier for me.

Ok, then I will put it back to stock when I get my trans back, should have it back Friday, That would explain the really fast upshifts are part to light throttle. I will just leave the band mods in and that should do it.

[Torqueflite]

Here's what I think I figured out with the full manual part:

Step 1 says to modify the throttle and kickdown valve, and add the supplied "green" spring. This will cause a slower rate of rise with the throttle pressure, which will in turn cause the line line pressure rate to rise slower. (when applying throttle). But I don't think this is a huge issue since you can crank the line pressure anyway. This mod will also limit "throttle pressure" to
around 100-110 psi, that is if you decide to crank up the line pressure higher than that and floor it. But the only job of throttle pressure in this modded valve body is to boost line pressure when you gas it.

Step 2 says to grind some flats on the second land of the 1-2 governor plug.
This land originally blocks fluid to the low/reverse servo and blocks fluid to the "reaction area" (this is the area on the valve that the fluid pushes on to try to make it move) on the back of the 1-2 plug. Without going into huge detail, one of the jobs of this part of the valve is to act as a "safety" so if you try to shift the tranny into 1st gear when you're going say like 150mph (or just 50mph), it won't let you. Grinding the flats on the valve allows the fluid to go to the low/reverse band at any time. But this mod is required, because without it, the tranny would never shift down into 1st. This is because governor pressure doesn't exist in the full manual valve body (line pressure replaces governor pressure which tries to move the shift valves instead of governor pressure).

Step 6 says to drill some existing holes bigger. They are the same holes as in the regular/heavy duty shift kit mods. They are drilled for the same reasons I said in a previous post, expect for hole E. Hole E feeds fluid to the low/reverse band. Opening up this hole will cause harsher engagement into reverse, and 1st gear. But if this hole isn't drilled, you will get overlap during the 1-2 shift. The low reverse band has to come off during the 1-2 shift, and the fluid has to exhaust through this hole. If the hole was still tiny, the fluid wouldn't exhaust from the servo quick enough, and the low/reverse band would come off too slow. The front band would then come on, and the tranny may bind up.

Step 7 and 8 says to throw away the governor tubes and block the old holes up. It then says to bust through a wall and connect two passages together. One of these passages is the governor pressure passage. The other passage is a line pressure passage (it's actually the passage that sends fluid from the manual valve and supplies it to the rear clutch, 1-2 shift valve, and governor valve. If you have the hydraulic flow charts, you can see this). When you connect these passages together, you're now supplying full line pressure (governor pressure is now bye bye) to the plugs of the shift valves. So now there's full line pressure trying to push the shift valves open. Back in step 2, it also said to replace the 1-2 shift spring with the supplied "black" spring. This spring is stronger, because it *must* hold the 1-2 shift valve closed against full line pressure when you shift the transmission into 1st gear.

Step 9 says to screw the supplied gasket and plate to the back of the one valve body half. This mod plugs off an exhaust hole. If you have the hydraulic flow charts, it's the exhaust hole that sits with the 1-2 governor plug. This mod works with the mod in step 2 (where the flats were ground from the 1-2 governor plug). If this hole wasn't blocked off, the fluid would leak when you tried to shift it to 1st gear.

The other steps I left out are pretty much self-explanatory, or have been covered in the post about the "regular/heavy duty" mods.

There's a couple things I don't like about these "full manual" mods. If you start cranking up the line pressure, the 1-2 shift may overlap/bind up because the high pressure will try to turn on the front band faster than the low/reverse band can release. This will cause both bands to be on just for an instant (or maybe longer) which is a bad thing.
The same overlap can happen during the 2-1 downshift. When you shift it into 1st, the manual valve will supply fluid to the low/reverse band right away (and also supply fluid to the 1-2 shift valve to make it close). The 1-2 shift valve must also close to exhaust fluid from the front band. If it doesn't close fast enough, the front band may still not have released as the low/reverse band is trying to apply, which will cause the overlap. But worst of all, if the 1-2 shift valve decides to stick in the "on" or "open" position (the position where it's supplying fluid to the front band), and you shift down into 1st, you'll come to a skidding hault from your tranny locking up in two gears at once.

I'm not putting down this shift kit at all. I think it's a decent deal for what you get. But there's just some things to be aware of. Make your own conclusions on what you think of it. If anyone has any other questions, or wants something explained further, I'll see what I can do.

Chad Kilback (reverse pattern manual valve body with trans-brake coming
soon)
Calgary, Alberta SDAC
88 Daytona Shelby "Zedd"
12.43 @ 111 quickest time
12.6 @ 113.00 fastest time
87 New Yorker "Norker Zedd" 2.5L TII 14.6 @ 93

[Torqueflite]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman Not making fun,

Ya. . . right! I know how you BC'ers are. I lived in BC a couple years ago.

Chad

[The Pope]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqueflite Chad Kilback (reverse pattern manual valve body with trans-brake coming soon) Calgary, Alberta SDAC 88 Daytona Shelby "Zedd" 12.43 @ 111 quickest time

yeah hurry up! lol, going to need a couple

Rob in Spokane

My brother with stock computer and boost control ran 12.74@ 110 on your old slicks in his SRT 4

[fish2222]

I have a question since you guys are dismantling this shift kit... How can I raise my shift points? I dont really care about them at normal driving speeds, but with this shift kit in, at WOT, It shifts from 1-2 and about 5200 RPM's, and 2-3 at about 4800 RPM's. I have 4 different springs that are supposed to go in the governor to take care of the 2nd gears starts, and after messing around with them, I have come to the conclusion that a stiffer spring might raise the shift points, but am needing some confirmation on this. All the springs I have are all different tensions, that came with different rebuild and shift kits. I hear about changing weights on the governor, but why would that make a differnce? Its still spinning at the same speed no matter what weight is on it, isnt it? Since it seems that either pressure and/or centrifugal force causes this thing to shift, how can I raise the points? Thanks!

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish2222 I have a question since you guys are dismantling this shift kit... How can I raise my shift points? I dont really care about them at normal driving speeds, but with this shift kit in, at WOT, It shifts from 1-2 and about 5200 RPM's, and 2-3 at about 4800 RPM's. I have 4 different springs that are supposed to go in the governor to take care of the 2nd gears starts, and after messing around with them, I have come to the conclusion that a stiffer spring might raise the shift points, but am needing some confirmation on this. All the springs I have are all different tensions, that came with different rebuild and shift kits. I hear about changing weights on the governor, but why would that make a differnce? Its still spinning at the same speed no matter what weight is on it, isnt it? Since it seems that either pressure and/or centrifugal force causes this thing to shift, how can I raise the points? Thanks!

First off, you can turn up the line pressure, this will raise your shift points. Did you drill the case when you had the valve body out?

2nd, what 4 springs are you talking about? I have both the shift kit and the sonnax kit. The shift kit has 1, the sonnax has 2?

Go here for more info-

Here is some governor shift info!

[Torqueflite]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish2222 I hear about changing weights on the governor, but why would that make a differnce? Its still spinning at the same speed no matter what weight is on it, isnt it?

Just like the other pressure valves in the valve body (throttle valve and regulator), the governor pressure valve is known as a "balance" valve. As the governor spins, the weight is being pushed out by centrifugal force (opening up the "governor pressure circuit" to line pressure). At the same time, line pressure is trying to push the weight the other direction (opening up the "governor pressure circuit" to exhaust). This causes the weight (the valve) to try and find a "neutral" position which essentially transforms line pressure into a new pressure (governor pressure). So governor pressure is determined by how much centrifugal force there is.
A lighter weight will cause *less* centrifugal force at a given speed the governor is rotating at, which means less governor pressure at that road speed. Now you have to get going at a faster road speed to build up enough governor pressure to hit the shift points.

Chad Kilback (reverse pattern manual valve body with trans-brake coming
soon)
Calgary, Alberta SDAC
88 Daytona Shelby "Zedd"
12.43 @ 111 quickest time
12.6 @ 113.00 fastest time
87 New Yorker "Norker Zedd" 2.5L TII 14.6 @ 93

[fish2222]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbovanman First off, you can turn up the line pressure, this will raise your shift points. Did you drill the case when you had the valve body out? 2nd, what 4 springs are you talking about? I have both the shift kit and the sonnax kit. The shift kit has 1, the sonnax has 2? Go here for more info- Here is some governor shift info!

I have a 4th spring that came with my Alto clutch kit that I put in that tranny. Its a much heavier spring and it seems that it would hold back a lot more then any of the others.

[turbovanman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish2222 I have a 4th spring that came with my Alto clutch kit that I put in that tranny. Its a much heavier spring and it seems that it would hold back a lot more then any of the others.

Gotcha.

[fish2222]

I read your posts in the governor thread. I guess I am still confused on how the weights can effect the shifting. The governor would spin at the same speed and the force should affect them the same no matter what the counter weight is i would think since the shaft basically turns the same speed in relation to the wheels. Maybe I need to reread something, but I still think this way. One question I do have is this - the 413 I have is one out of an 85 tbi or carb car I believe. When I rebuilt it, I used the same transfer shaft and diff gears that it came with that I think are the 2.78 setup. I did upgrade it to a 4 disc setup though instead of 2 and 3 like it had originally. Would the governor in this be set different and be leading to my lower shift points? I dont really have any other weights, only that other spring I mentioned to try, but I would also like my shift points about 5500 RPM's if I could adjust them there. I just dont know where to start.

[turbovanman]

The governor doesn't spin at 1:1, so picture this. You have a 10 lb weight on a string, now spin around, the weight is flying out-now this is what happesn in side the governor, but as the weight is being pushed out by spinning, line pressure is on the back side trying to push it back. These 2 forces set your shift speed.
TBI's shift lower, so you need to change out the TBI stuff. Did you turn up the line pressure? Honestly, if you reread my post, it all makes sense.

[fish2222]

I turned up the line pressure to the amount suggested in the shift kit. Would a turbo governor fix my shift points? I really dont mind taking it apart the change the spring or weights, but I would like to have a good idea of what to change the first time so I dont have to take it apart again. I could have sworn that when I put that tranny together, the governor went onto a splined shaft that would make it 1:1 with the diff speed. I will have to dig out all the old parts from the other tranny I have and look it over again...

[fish2222]

So, I guess I will ask this then. Will a stronger spring help raise the shift points since it would take more force to open the valve? I would think it would since the Sonnax kit has two springs and one is supposed to raise the shift points more than the other. Right now I have the V6 spring in mine since it was supposed to have higher shift points...

[fish2222]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqueflite A lighter weight will cause *less* centrifugal force at a given speed the governor is rotating at, which means less governor pressure at that road speed. Now you have to get going at a faster road speed to build up enough governor pressure to hit the shift points. Chad Kilback (reverse pattern manual valve body with trans-brake coming soon) Calgary, Alberta SDAC 88 Daytona Shelby "Zedd" 12.43 @ 111 quickest time 12.6 @ 113.00 fastest time 87 New Yorker "Norker Zedd" 2.5L TII 14.6 @ 93

So, for instance if I drilled my weight out to make it lighter, my shift points would go up? Or would that be a good idea? Sorry for being a pain, but I am just trying to learn and get this thing tuned to my liking. My problem is I dont have any Turbo 413 parts. They seem to be impossible to find around here...

[turbovanman]

Dude, reread my governor post, it tells you exactly what to do.

I wouldn't drill them out, you could be going in and out 100's of times to figure it out.