Hi-performance brakes

[Polygon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hemi-K You won't see them on Michael Schumacher's Ferrari F1 car because they are not metal, they are carbon fiber. If you drill carbon fiber you are severly weakening them! Carbon metallic pads on cabon fiber rotors in F1. You are comparing apples to oranges. Cross drilled and slotted rotors is old technology in F1 and road racing, everyone uses carbon fiber now, so no need to drill and slot. And yes it does work to dissapate heat and gas on regular iron rotors with semi-metallic pads. Where you are getting your info is beyond me, as it was used in racing from the 50's to about the early 80's with much success. If you think it was a marketing ploy, I bet you believe in conspiracy theories too......

You don't know where I get my information? It is pretty simple that if you remove material from the rotor you lessen the contact patch for the brake pad. I don't see any major forms of racing that use the cross drilled or slotted rotors and there are still some out there that don't use any new technology. The faster people at the auto-x courses don't use them either. Also, we are talking about the street here and cross drilling and slotting is a marketing ploy.

No, I don't buy into conspiracies, but if you're going to try to mock my intelligence and opinion post some links to back up what you have to say first.

[PaintPeelinPbod]

It all depends on Application. Some supercars once used slotted and drilled rotors because your talking about a car that can exceed 150 mph, and you want to be able to stop quickly, but not full force lock up. I think the drilled rotors are better suited for a bigger car that actually brakes *longer* not neccisarily with more force. Auto-X guys will never use those features, you need quick reacting and most times full force application of the brakes in auto-x. There's enough time between braking to cool the brakes.

When you come into a turn at 150mph, your brakes are going to be applied for at least a 3-6 seconds (est.) probablly longer, as opposed to the 2 second intervals that you'll use on a autocross course. On a track, a supercar will most likely hit 100 and back down to 30 a few times in a minute, so you have quite a few long braking area, where heat will become a major factor, as will brake gases. *This application justifies quality slotted and drilled rotors*

For daily driving, you could defenantly apply brakes on the highway in emergency situations for longer then 6 seconds, but for how little one would do that it doesnt justify the need for release of these gases.

My advice? Spend the money on EBC/Hawk/Porterfield/ect pads and new blank rotors. OEM rotors are sooooo incredibly cheap these days, I wouldnt want to risk spending money on a cheap set of drilled or slottled rotors just so I can say my car has them.

However, a coated oem rotor would be cool if it never rusted...

[Hemi-K]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polygon You don't know where I get my information? It is pretty simple that if you remove material from the rotor you lessen the contact patch for the brake pad. I don't see any major forms of racing that use the cross drilled or slotted rotors and there are still some out there that don't use any new technology. The faster people at the auto-x courses don't use them either. Also, we are talking about the street here and cross drilling and slotting is a marketing ploy. No, I don't buy into conspiracies, but if you're going to try to mock my intelligence and opinion post some links to back up what you have to say first.

No I don't know where you get your information. Let's see some facts from you rather than opinions.

You want facts on this subject, go to this page here:
Brakes page

These are excerpts from a couple of published books on some pretty well known racing cars. If you still think its a marketing ploy after you read these books in their entirety then yes I am still mocking your intelligence.

Racers and engineers came up with these solutions to brake fade, not the marketing department. I don't even think that the marketing department would know what brake fade is to begin with.

And as someone else mentioned about brake fluid boiling before slotted/drilled rotors would have any effect, this is only partially true. With standard DOT3 fluid this would be the case, but most supercars and racers don't use DOT3, they use DOT4 or DOT5 which have a higher boiling point than standard glycol based DOT3.

Do you need any of this on your average street car? Probably not. But if you are racing your car on the track, eg: roadracing, then I would say you are not wasting your time or your money. Brake fade is a scarey thing if you don't know what to do....I'd rather have overkill on the brakes and suspension than the motor. Anyone can go fast with a fast car, going fast with a "slow" car is more fun and more of a challenge. More go with out the more WHOA! is no fun.

[Polygon]

I am surprised you made a page on your Cardomain site just for me. Anyhow, after look at the mere three pages you provided me as proof, I am still skeptical. However, I've decided to head down to the library and find some books on this and find out for myself. At the least you might be right about cross-drilling and slotting in the racing world. However, I stick by my opinion that if you're going to cross-drill that you need to go with bigger rotors to replace the material you lost by cross-drilling. I also stick by my opinion that cross-drilling and slotting is a marketing ploy to sell more expensive brakes on street cars to ricers. For instance I saw a solid rotor that was cross-drilled on a Civic Si and it was a tiny rotor at that. It is a way for them to make money and no street car will see the benefit from cross-drilling. Slotting has always given better initial bite but it eats pads like there is no tomorrow. For a street car you just need a descent sized solid-faced vented rotor with a good set of pads. This can be illustrated by the Viper SRT-10. It has solid faced rotors and it stops from sixty to zero in 98 feet.

[Hemi-K]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polygon I am surprised you made a page on your Cardomain site just for me. Anyhow, after look at the mere three pages you provided me as proof, I am still skeptical. However, I've decided to head down to the library and find some books on this and find out for myself. At the least you might be right about cross-drilling and slotting in the racing world. However, I stick by my opinion that if you're going to cross-drill that you need to go with bigger rotors to replace the material you lost by cross-drilling. I also stick by my opinion that cross-drilling and slotting is a marketing ploy to sell more expensive brakes on street cars to ricers. For instance I saw a solid rotor that was cross-drilled on a Civic Si and it was a tiny rotor at that. It is a way for them to make money and no street car will see the benefit from cross-drilling. Slotting has always given better initial bite but it eats pads like there is no tomorrow. For a street car you just need a descent sized solid-faced vented rotor with a good set of pads. This can be illustrated by the Viper SRT-10. It has solid faced rotors and it stops from sixty to zero in 98 feet.

Yes, but the Viper SRT-10 ACR and the new GTS coming out have cross drilled rotors for competition use. So there goes that theory.

Porsche developed the crossdrilled rotor for the 917 way back in '71 and they noticed considerable improvements....so much so that they standardized it on all there competition cars and later the street cars. They were so good at outbraking the competition that the competition decided they needed to follow suit, and this is how it became a standard in racing until the carbonfiber disc was developed. The reason those aren't cross drilled is because you have two similar materials contacting each other so they react about the same to the high temps. Far less gassing occurs with carbonfiber brakes than with iron rotors, so the need for cross drilling isn't there. Also, when Porsche were developing the drilled rotors they were looking to lose weight from the cars unsorung weight and found the heat dissapation a bonus. Carbonfiber rotors are far lighter than iron ones so there is another reason not to bother, besides the strength factor.

I still think you need to read up on the subject before stating its a "marketing ploy". It was developed by the competition department engineers, not marketing, and if you look at it....Porsche's marketing has always been its engineering, they always sold themselves without any real marketing.

[Polygon]

Yes, but I am talking about the street here. The production SRT-10 has solid faced rotors, they aren't cross-drilled and the 3,400 pound car stops from sixty in 98 feet. That was my point; I don't see why you brought the track versions into it. I was talking about street cars.

I don't care what proof you could possibly provide when dealing with a street car cross-drilling is a marketing ploy. Ferrari has even stated that its street cars have it for appearance.

Here is a thread I think you need to read, it may be long, but it is a good read:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ad.php?t=85221

Don't click the link in the first post of the thread, just read the posts.

[PaintPeelinPbod]

There is no doubt that yes, some manufactures simply produce stock sized cross drilled rotors for the slowest cars you can buy.

But here again, race cars have function wings, ricers have non-functional wings, racers have cross drilled rotors that work, and ricers have them that dont.

Poor poor ricer.

[Hemi-K]

Polygon, I read the link you posted, and the link in it. The only thing I get out of the thread there is the same thing here. People have already formed opinions and are not basing them on fact plain and simple. The only thing that made any sense was the link in that forums thread.

[Hemi-K]

[quote=Polygon]Yes, but I am talking about the street here. QUOTE]


About to refresh your memory....

[Hemi-K]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polygon That is a marketing ploy. There is a reason they don't use cross-drilled rotors in major forms of racing such as F1, NASCAR, WRC, and GT. When you cross drill you're removing material and giving the pad less contact patch that translates into less effective braking. Cross-drilled rotors also have a tendency to crack. If you're going to buy into cross drilled rotors then you have to get bigger rotors to compensate for the loss of pad material. Those of you that have bought cross-drilled rotors really need to stop relying on your butt dyno to tell you what is more effective and actually run a test between the two sets of rotors.

I believe you were speaking about racing here originally not the street as you stated 2 posts ago.

[Hemi-K]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaintPeelinPbod There is no doubt that yes, some manufactures simply produce stock sized cross drilled rotors for the slowest cars you can buy. But here again, race cars have function wings, ricers have non-functional wings, racers have cross drilled rotors that work, and ricers have them that dont. Poor poor ricer.

I can only half agree with you here. A wing on the trunk of a FWD car does nothing but take traction away from the driving wheels, I'll give you that. However, crossdrilled/slotted rotors no matter what the size will help in braking efficiency. It may be to a lesser degree if you are staying with the stock size rotor than if you are going with massive Brembos or something, but it will help in brake fade. Its been proven time and time again on the racetrack as well as the street.

[DirectConnection]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaintPeelinPbod There is no doubt that yes, some manufactures simply produce stock sized cross drilled rotors for the slowest cars you can buy. But here again, race cars have function wings, ricers have non-functional wings, racers have cross drilled rotors that work, and ricers have them that dont. Poor poor ricer.

Perfect analogy. So... can you two guys come to a peace settlement with that said?

[DirectConnection]

Also... what does everyone suggest for '91 R/T rotors? I want quality ones, but cheap, too. I'm not asking for much, huh???

Stock Mopar ones from the dealer, or someone have a better option?

[PaintPeelinPbod]

this is like talking about religion or politics!

that said...i'll be running stock rotors with brute stop pads from reybestos, cheap but just a little more grip.

[Hemi-K]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirectConnection Perfect analogy. So... can you two guys come to a peace settlement with that said?

Sure, I'll settle that he's wrong about it being a marketing ploy for ricers.....