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16v Conversion Converting to 16V status

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post #1 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 09:17 AM Thread Starter
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16V Conversion

I have looked around for info on 16v conversion. I have found the distributor adapter and have heard you plug holes and run lines. I've seen posts that they run fine and I've seen others say they barely run. My dad is lenient to do a 16v conversion with a 2.4 head b/c of negative feedback. He said the people with problems, most likely have those problems b/c the lines are too small. I have a bunch of questions and would like to do a 16v conv, but I need info. For example, Will the Pt Gt intake clear a distributor? Does anyone have a finished successful 16v conv and does anyone daily drive a 16v conv? The plan would be to do this for a racecar, but I still want it to work, not break all the time, and be somewhat efficient. We currently have a full 2.4, but the question is, what is easier and cheaper. I have a passenger side framerail to mock up motor mounts. This motor would go in a beat up Shelby Charger and the plan would be to paint the car to look like the Sox and Martin Omni. I found some links that look pretty good.

https://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11...ing-up-my.html

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/224937...dodge-daytona/

https://www.turbododge.com/forums/f11...reads-16v.html
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post #2 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 09:52 AM
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Re: 16V Conversion

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Originally Posted by v8sr4u View Post
My dad is lenient to do a 16v conversion with a 2.4 head b/c of negative feedback.
Why just the head? Why not the entire turbo 2.4 engine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8sr4u View Post
I have looked around for info on 16v conversion. I have found the distributor adapter and have heard you plug holes and run lines. I've seen posts that they run fine and I've seen others say they barely run.
A.J first tried using SMEC to control 2.4L. Then he went MS.
Learn from him, go with MS to save money.

'04 SRT-4 engine in an '88 Caravan build

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8sr4u View Post
For example, Will the Pt Gt intake clear a distributor? Does anyone have a finished successful 16v conv and does anyone daily drive a 16v conv? The plan would be to do this for a racecar,
Make up your mind. Daily driver is not race car. Pick one or the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by v8sr4u View Post
The plan would be to do this for a racecar, but I still want it to work, not break all the time, and be somewhat efficient.
It may be news to you, but race-car breaks ALL the time. When you put serious power thru the parts that are designed to handle maybe 200lb ft of torque, parts break.

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what is easier and cheaper.
RWD is easier and cheaper...
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post #3 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 10:08 AM
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Re: 16V Conversion

If you already have a complete 2.4, I'd just use that. It's a very good engine, and 3 of the 4 bellhousing holes already line up. You can use a TD flywheel & clutch on it to mate it to one of our transaxles. For the 4th hole, you can either have somebody TIG a boss into the bellhousing, or others have modified the front mount to make a boss that spans the difference between the two holes.

Depending on the year of your 2.4, you will probably have to clearance the back of the block for the TD starter, but that's not that tough.

Truth is, most of the parts referenced in the one link you posted aren't made anymore. This conversion just isn't that popular.

If you use the 2.4, you can run it with megasquirt off the stock cam & crank sensors, and avoid having to use the TD distributor, which spins backwards anyway...

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post #4 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 16V Conversion

I referenced daily driver, b/c my dad wants a racecar that could be a daily driver. Parts break on daily drivers too. I am not opposed to using the entire 2.4, but I wanted other opinions. Also, you upgrade parts, so your not putting 400hp through a part intended to have 100hp. Rwd would be cool, but my dad wants to stay fwd and I do too. Also, I don't think we wan't to ms. I want to run it on smec if we do a full 2.4.
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post #5 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 10:57 AM
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Re: 16V Conversion

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Originally Posted by v8sr4u View Post
I want to run it on smec if we do a full 2.4.
We been there and done that. SMEC worked ok but if you want power, do it right the first time and use MS instead. Distributor ,HEP, and single coil setup will rob you of power.

Quote:
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Also, you upgrade parts, so your not putting 400hp through a part intended to have 100hp.
We've been at this game longer than you have. There are parts with ZERO upgrade path.

Examples:
Input shaft on the transmission
Transmission housing
Some parts internal to the automatic transmission
Manual transmissions gears or synchros
etc
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post #6 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 11:13 AM Thread Starter
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Re: 16V Conversion

I could have an input shaft made. I have access to a 3d printer, cnc, laser, welding class, and I think plasma cutter.
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post #7 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 11:58 AM
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Re: 16V Conversion

There are a couple of old sayings that come to mind right now:

Cubic inches or cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go?

When it comes to speed you have three choices: Fast, cheap, reliable, pick any two...

I get where you are coming from, but there is a reason those types of parts are not readily available for our cars. Not enough demand, and not enough $$$$ to make it worth the effort. I'm guessing that once you get right down to the brass tacks, you will find that making these parts just isn't worth the effort. Plus, it takes some really specialized machinery to make shafts & gears. Trust me, my everyday job is dealing with shops that do such work, and if you don't have a shop set up to do the work, it's not going to happen.

One of the shops I work with, the owner has a mid-5 second 1/8 mile Camaro. Full tube chassis, twin turbo LS motor, and he doesn't make most of his own parts. He has one of the best equiped shops in the area, but he stops short of motor or trans work. He'll make headers, motor mounts etc. But when it comes to internals, he leaves that to the guys who have the right equipment.

Having access to a machine shop is one thing, knowing how to use it, and having the correct tooling to make what you need is a totally different ball game.

The really fast guys, keep lots of spare parts on hand. One of the fastest guys I know has a 10.5 second Daytona, and he keeps 3-4 spare transaxles on hand. Why? Because he knows at the power level he is making, he's going to crack a case at least once a year. He keeps 2-3 sets of $800 DSS custom half shafts on hand. Why? Because he knows he going to blow a few up on launch. This is a guy who isn't afraid to spend money. IF there was something better out there, he would have it. It just doesn't exist...

Not trying to burst your bubble, but you asked, and we are giving you our honest feedback.

Besides, as a guy who just finished a motor build for my L-body pickup, I can speak from experience, you go anywhere close to 300 hp, and it's one wicked ride. My 8V 2.5 is only running about 12 psi of boost at this point, and I've scared every passenger I've given a ride to so far. It's that fast. I stopped where I did because the really fast guys told me that's where to stop if I don't want to spend stupid money and break stuff. You go beyond 300 hp, and you will break lots of stuff...

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post #8 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 12:42 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 16V Conversion

We are running 12.5 psi in our 86 T&C with a 2.2 and I scared the crap out of my mom. The plan is to have a Shelby Charger or any other l-body with a 2.4 (as of now), an a413 or 31th (I want to use a413s, b/c we have like 12), and 20psi. I know the hardest part of getting this to work is keeping the trans from blowing. I am pretty sure the peloquin would be a good addition. I have also heard that blowing axles happens less if your engine and trans is PERFECTLY aligned. Also, does the trans case just blow apart or is there a part inside that flies and breaks the case? What are the weak points in the a413? I've heard diff and input shaft are weak points. Can't you use van parts to beef them up? My teacher said if I want something made (like the hurst pistol grip shifter I might have made) I can give the class a design and they will make it. I don't claim to be an expert and I don't want to seem like a no-it-all. I have done a lot of research and raced our 86 T&C. I know research is not going to be the same as personal experience. I did notice that I was asking about my car and a bunch of people freaked out. I have an 81 Dodge Omni with a 2.5 n/a pistons, swirl head, and a mitsu turbo. I was asking for opinions on intercooler ideas and what not and so many people were like, YOU CAN'T RUN N/A PISTONS WITH BOOST. I'm only running 5 psi and people thought I was going to blow my motor. My car has been running fine, other than 36 year old parts needing replaced.
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post #9 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 02:03 PM
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Re: 16V Conversion

The only real difference in autos is turbo vs non-turbo. The turbo's were supposed to get more clutch discs. Then late versions (91+ IIRC) added the lock up converter. Be careful which ones you have, there are early and later versions where they changed a bunch of stuff( I believe 86 was the cross-over year, but don't quote me on that). Torque converter had 3 bolts, then 4, pump drive changed at the same time. Can't use an early trans on a late motor because they never made the correct flex plate. I'm not really up on the autos, so others can chime in more info, but input shafts are a known weakness, the diff's tend to puke out pinion shafts during one wheel smokies. Those are two weaknesses I know of.

I think the reaction you got related to a turbo on your N/A bottom end was folks just wanting to warn you of what could happen. It's always assumed that once you get a taste of boost, you will want more(I know I did). 5 psi is a "safe" level on N/A pistons. Shouldn't be an issue, but I wouldn't want to run much more. Chrysler engineers designed different pistons for a reason.

Unfortunately with an L-body, you are very limited on what can transfer. They run unique length half shafts, so unless you are willing to spend the big bucks for a set of DSS axles, you are pretty well stuck with stock replacements. A 2.4 on 20 psi is gong to be a wicked motor. You will blow stuff up, can't avoid that. You want to see what a max effort A-413 is, go check out Warren Stramer's posts over on turbo-mopar.com. Laser XE coming back - Page 42 He posted pictures of the mods he did to his. I doubt your shop teacher can get that kind of work done....

You asked for info, and here it is. If you're willing to do the work, there are lots of things you can do, but all of it costs $$$.

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post #10 of 11 Old 12-05-2017, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 16V Conversion

I do know you can run k-car/g-body axles in an l-body by using the g-body k-member and control arms. A guy on Facebook has an Omni called Frankenstein with a v6 and shadow suspension. Also, I do want more boost, but I must upgrade my trans first, then buy some race gas. The plan for my Omni is to have switchable boost. Right now boost reference is straight to the wastegate. I could add a solenoid and make it computer controlled at the flip of a switch. More boost in my Omni is far down the road, b/c our T&C is the big project right now. I'm trying to gather info for the sc drag car. I do know dcr had an auto holding his 700hp 2.4. Someone said he built another and was making 1500hp.
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post #11 of 11 Old 12-06-2017, 08:53 AM
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Re: 16V Conversion

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I do know you can run k-car/g-body axles in an l-body by using the g-body k-member and control arms. A guy on Facebook has an Omni called Frankenstein with a v6 and shadow suspension. Also, I do want more boost, but I must upgrade my trans first, then buy some race gas. The plan for my Omni is to have switchable boost. Right now boost reference is straight to the wastegate. I could add a solenoid and make it computer controlled at the flip of a switch. More boost in my Omni is far down the road, b/c our T&C is the big project right now. I'm trying to gather info for the sc drag car. I do know dcr had an auto holding his 700hp 2.4. Someone said he built another and was making 1500hp.

Well, you are partially correct. You are missing a lot of information. A K-car based K frame is in no way, shape, or form a bolt in for an L-body. The body pick-up points are completely different. Yes, a few guys have done it, but it requires completely cutting off the mounting legs, and relocating them to match the L-body mounting points. Of course then you still have the issue of the wheels sticking out of the body a couple inches because it's so much wider. Don't believe everything you read on facebook. One of the SDAC members is building a GRM Challenge Rampage. He used K-car suspension in it, but only after heavily modifying the K-frame, and reconfiguring the front fenders & rear quater panels by widing them out considerably so the truck doesn't look ridiculous with the tires sticking out. He has hundreds of hours of fab work into making that setup work. But, it's a purpose-built vehicle, and he wanted the wider stance for better handling.

Typically, an 89+ dual pivot K-frame is sectioned in the middle and narrowed to L-body specs because they want the better suspension geometry of the dual pivot A arms. But you still use L-body axles because when finished, it's stock width. I'm guessing that's what your facebook guy did.

As far as an auto holding the power, sure it can be done. Lots of guys do it every day. But I can tell you, you don't want to see the price tag of that auto that will hold 700 hp, or 1500 hp. Generally speaking, it's easier to make an auto hold the power than a stick. The torque converter flashes and takes a lot of the initial hit to save parts. That's one of the main reasons the fastest minivans are all autos. Less shock to the driveline...

Again, I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but let you know that once you get into this, you are going to find MAJOR sticker shock. Just hope you're ready to pony up the dough...

Like I said yesterday: cubic inches, or cubic dollars, how fast can you afford to go???
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