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cheap turbo 3.0 using a factory ECU

25K views 85 replies 14 participants last post by  knightmoves 
#1 ·
OK, i have been lately receiving questions about turboing a 3.0 and still use the stock ecu. Now I know the best way is Megasquirt or Emanage blue piggy back. that isn't what i want this thread to reflect. I want to build the "cheap turbo" thread. a bear bones stock ecu set up for the guy who just wants to go fast... well fast!!!LOL so please post away! and yes this will be a sticky soon!
 
#2 ·
well im pretty sure im the only 3.0 turbo user that hasnt went MS yet... you really need to do nothing with it, runs fine under boost! Run a RRFPR to control fuel and you'll be golden. anyone that wants to know bear minimum turbo setup needs to review all of my threads. i made them pretty easy to follow i think ;)
 
#4 ·
OK, so lets post some questions.
1. top PSI of boost with the stock ECU?
2.size of turbo?
3.waist gate design?
4.is there a factory turbo that could be bought at a junk yard to do a cheap turbo build?
5.is a inner cooler a need or a want?
remember guys we want to post a simple thread that will let the low budget guy get his TD running fast with as little money as possible.
 
#5 ·
OK, so lets post some questions.
1. top PSI of boost with the stock ECU?
Not sure, I have run 10psi, but that is not the limit.

2.size of turbo?
You want to go pretty big. ie. T3/t4e hybrid 60 trim. I am running a T3/T4b super H.

3.waste gate design?
I use an external wastegate (turbonetics brand I think)

4.is there a factory turbo that could be bought at a junk yard to do a cheap turbo build?
There are some, but it takes some effort and luck to find them. My T3/T4b originally came on a '93 Ford F350 diesel... I found it on ebay cheap.

Initial reports from those running some of the cheap turbos (ie. CXRacing) are good. I am considering one of the GT3582 turbos.

5.is a inner cooler a need or a want?
remember guys we want to post a simple thread that will let the low budget guy get his TD running fast with as little money as possible.
Depends on how much boost you want to run and how big the turbo is. If you are running a very efficient turbo at relatively low boost, then you can get away without an intercooler.

That said, intercoolers are generally pretty cheap these days... The bigger hassle is routing all the tubing...


Ed Kelly - Kelly-Mulhern Performance
 
#6 ·
^ yeah what Ed said !!!!!!!

and ive ran 12psi fine with mine...... i think what it really boils down to is injector size. the stock ECU has a real hard time compensating for the #30's that i have, and 12psi is really about it out of those. 12psi @102 PSI (which is way to big a number!!! but because racecar :D ) in the fuel line = A/F of 11.4~ so realistically the ECU will handle what ever you throw at it... what limits this is the fact the ECU cant really push a bigger injector than #30's car just will not click over lol, just floods the engine out. first morning start up, if i full throttle it, looks like a cummins.
 
#8 ·
Those of us not looking to up rev limit will be fine? Was readin Shred's build, sounds like stock injectors even work up to 6lbs of boost.
 
#10 ·
Great thread guys! I wanted to ask this since you're all here. What has the e-manage been able to do for you all on an n/a setup? (so everyone can hear)

I completed my first dyno pulls last friday on my 93 3.0 Cargo van. (3sp auto)
Was pleased that my pull was on-par (losses of auto) with Sundance's 5 speed when it was n/a.
I am seriously considering e-manage as a gap-stop, until i can swing MS or a decent 3D cal. (top end seems to be suffering)
 
#14 ·
On a '93 3L (high-impedance injectors) you lengthen the injector pulses. You can also adjust the MAP reading to add some fuel. On my Spirit I use it to fill the gap before the FMU kicks in and at higher rpm when the ECU expects the engine to run out of breath.

Looking at the pull, if the A/F graphed at the bottom is accurate, you are lean (>14) for a WOT pull. Strange behavior. Was the engine warmed up? Have you recently made changes or reset the ecu? There is some potential for significant gains by getting the AF to 13-13.5.

Ed Kelly - Kelly-Mulhern Performance
 
#28 · (Edited)
I highly suspect a clogged up fuel pump sock (just a hunch). I've done many dyno pulls, so was very picky about being at op temp, and having operator watch a/f like a hawk (I cringed over that).
Running a short ram intake, 3" ex, 14*base timing, 5w30 synth oil, and fresh tune up.
Will have to pull pump saturday, and may go ahead and throw my 255 walbaro pump w fresh sock in. (will this be happy?)
 
#15 ·
okay slow down

ed ran 10psi but he also has a rebuilt motor. what guys needs to be aware of is that running a stock motor is going to mean they have tight ring gaps. if they have a 93 or newer, they will also have the so called "weaker" pistons.



the pistn on the left is the new style 8.9:1 and the one on the right is the old style 8.5:1

the year change over date was 93.. my 93 had the stronger pistons but some 93s will have the weaker ones.

if i remember correctly, the weaker looking pistons had bigger ring gaps though. in a perfect world, you would run the stronger pistons with re grapped rings. when i re ringed the pistons bobby sent me, the gap was good enough. i used the cromoly rings off rock auto.

that said, i ran 11.5psi (maybe even 13!!) through my turbo at one point on a bone stock factory 3.0

what killed my motor was seeing 13:1 air fuel at a brief point, super high coolant temp (poor head seal?), and capped off rear manifold (higher egt, when i let off the gas after a hard pull, i would get flames out the exhaust!)



with that said, this is what i would do if going for a stock ecu, cheep as can get build.


FUEL

- begi rising rate regulator. this regulator lets you set base pressure and how much of a rising rate it has. Brent ran this for years (still does on his DD spirit) with no problems. I know Dr. Shred uses one to

- 30# injectors from a mustang of whatever. you can even run injectors from a supercharged 3800 car. just do your research on what injectors came with what car.

- walbro fuel pump. Ed and I have both proved that the stock oem pump will handle boost but we cannot say the same about an aftermarket replacement pump.

- AEM or LC-1 wideband. i like the AEM

install the fuel system and wideband first. with stock base pressure (43.5psi or so) you will run WAY to rich at WOT. turn the base pressure down until you get a happy 11.5 air fuel ratio when full throttle.

once you have the big injectors tuned on your N/A motor, you can focus on turbo parts.


I runt his turbo. it spools good, and hasnt blown up. im running a small restrictor for the oil feed. to much oil pressure will kill cheep turbos

cxracing.com: T3 T4 Turbocharger Internal Wastegate 8PSI , 2.5" V-Band Exhaust, 3" Inlet & 2" Outlet

the problem with this turbo is that the wastegate is way to small. This problem is fixed with an external wastegate. without a bigger wastegate i overboosted to 11.5psi on a regular basis. WATCH YOUR BOOST LEVELS

i also run CX racing front mount intercooler and cx piping. my intake temps at 11psi rarely go over ambient temps. thats awesome bang for the buck.


you also need to weld in a oil return line. this line needs to enter the oil pan as high as you can get it and it has to be free flowing. mine is huge, i think it has a 3/8inch ID.


first thing first is getting the fuel system sorted out right away. this will make or break the car.

oo and if you must cap off the rear manifold instead of running one of ed's or making your own, try and port out the divider as much as you can. That divider chokes flow from cyl 1 and 3 horribly when you cap the manifo9ld to force flow into the crossover to spool the turbo.

ill post more tomorrow when i can think straight. im tired as hell and no care to spell check
 
#16 ·
everyone is doing great!! Most of our guys as you know don't have big bucks to built a super nice turbo motor. but if we can help them do it on the cheap.....!!!!!:thumb:
 
#17 ·
the main thing is understanding how to use the RRR and understanding that you HAVE to keep the system rich (11.2-11.5 for low boost, richer for more than 8psi IMO) if they want to have something stable.

You cant skimp on the fueling period end of story. poniac 3800SC injectors can be had super cheep. Walbro fuel pumps are $100 and the begi is around $300 last time i checked. Then you have everything else.

they need to understand that a custom downpipe has to be fabricated and you cant just buy one. its more effort than one would think.

iits not the kind of project you take on because you feel like it. RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH. i know i spent at least a year and a half reading on how to turbocharge my car, how to use megasquirt, etc. I ran megasquirt for a half year or more before i even thought of putting the turbo on. same goes for your rising rate regulator setup. You need to know how to work that sucker before you turbocharge the car.
 
#19 ·
hmm sweet i have a set of injectros for a GTP actualy i have 4 sets 2 extra and thent he sets in my to cars my stock GTP and my modified GT with a supercharged 3800 swapped in to replaced the N/A 3800

i guess i do nto have to buy injectors lol
 
#21 ·
I'm gettin mixed responses here, Shred says stock injectors can handle low boost, 6ish. Sundance claims you must upgrade for injectors for boost. What's the story?
 
#23 ·
Ed, the begi i like because it not only has an adjustable base pressure but it also is adjustable for the rising rate part.

as for the injectors, the stock injectors can do low boost i guess if your running a high fuel pressure. with a megasquirt, it would never happen because your only increasing fuel pressure by 1psi for each pound of boost. With an FMU or the begi, you can increase the fuel pressure 10psi for every pound of boost. i think that is what shred did and thats ALOT of pressure. 60psi more fuel pressure. you better have a walbro before you even think of doing that.

i feel going to the junkyard and grabbing some 3800sc injectors is a better idea. just run those with a low base pressure and your set. i didnt max my 3800 injectors out on 93 pump gas when i was running 8-13psi through my turbo. ported heads might change that but if you can buy ported heads, you can also buy megasquirt or any other tuner plus nice injectors

i also STRESSS that yo research any injectors that you grab from the yard. not all the 3800 motors had the 35#. it changed with the year at some point. they are also high impedance so you need to make sure that is what your year car uses.
 
#33 ·
Ed, the begi i like because it not only has an adjustable base pressure but it also is adjustable for the rising rate part.
For less than the price of the begi, you can buy and FMU and an AFPR...

On the injectors, all I can say is that I run stock injectors w/boost and wouldn't without an electronic means to lengthen the injector pulsewidth.

The way I have set things up is to use larger injectors and turn the base fuel pressure down so that the flow of the injectors matches stock (this pressure can be determined mathematically.) Then the FMU increases the fuel pressure in boost (FMU fuel pressure = boost pressure * gain. So at 1 psi boost, a 10:1 FMU is trying to set the fuel pressure at 10psi. So if your base fuel pressure is set to 20psi, the AFPR is holding FP at 21psi and the FMU is not helping... Nor is it helping at 2psi of boost...
 
#25 ·
im not so sure about that. the GTP guys dont seem to know what they even have. (at least when i asked)

i was told that mine are 33# and then they told me they are 36# and i know a different year had 28 or something like that. not like it matters.. only reason it mattered to me was i wanted my Megasquirt to know the right size injector i have (makes it easy when switching to a different size and not having to retune your fuel map)

I upgraded to 46# zzp bosch injectors that are flowmatched and such. not sure if its the injectors or the e85 but the car idles much better (might be the higher pulse width at idle) but i was going from injectors from a junked car.

would be a good idea to make sure your pulling the injectors from a car that was in a wrench rather than one that looks fine. the ones that look fine prolly had poor care.
 
#29 ·
correct. they should do the job as long as they are good and functioning. i dont need anyone coming at me 2 months from now because their junkyard injectors failed on them during a boosted pull. i ran them, they worked. i went fast. i got them for next to nothing.
 
#27 ·
they where rated at 36# at 43.5psi by BOSCH but the GTP runs at 52psi so on a GTP they are actualy 38# injectors

they are the exact same same part number from GM through the whole preduction run of the L67

here is the part number for L67 injectors 24508208
 
#30 ·
In order to run stock injectors you have to be using a RRFPR... fuel pressure in the lines will be somewhere around 100 psi... which is maxing the injectors out yes... but low boost, they will handle. like sundance said, MS can make them produce enough like over pressurizing them will.
 
#31 ·
no i meant megasquirt would run out of injector

with the stock injectors, megasquirt, stock regulator you will max the injectors out in no time.

the stock regulator adds 1psi of fuel for each psi it sees in the intake. Megasquirt will then increase the pulse width of the injectors as much as it can to keep the air fuel in the 11s but it will run out of pulse width and there for you will require ALOT of fuel pressure to make up for it. an injector opening for 10ms at 45psi will not flow as much fuel as the same injector opening for 10ms at 100psi.

but with big injectors MS will not need the aide of high fuel pressure.


another thing user's need to understand is timing retard. we like to tell guys to advance their timing to 15* but when the motor is boosted, its a different story. youl want to back your timing down to 10*. the reason for this is that at WOT (while NA) you will be running a good amount of timing. the second you enter boost, the ECU has no idea that you have boost and therefor it runs ALOT of timing. ALOT of timing plus boost equals a dead motor.

if you retard your base timing to 10*, youl be running less timing through the whole table. this is fine for low boost (8-10psi) but dont try to go much further. Ondontii ran lots of boost (20ish) and made lots of power but he was ALWAYS using meth injection or running e85 and that is what allowed his motor to be pushed so far and run that much timing.

hot intake temp, to much timing advance, and not enough fuel will kill your motor.
 
#32 ·
I figured as much on the timing, thanks for telling about where it should be. As far as injectors, JY parts are always at your own risk, testin them before installing would be a great idea.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Thoughts (cheap setup) on running 7psi boost on factory rings for extended time? (~1year)
I cannot do plenum flip, have the a670 kick-down linkage. Has anyone addressed this with creative solutions? (and no i'm not pulling it out for anything else, lol)
 
#38 ·
all my pistons looked flawless on my motor that i blew up expect the one that melted

i ran 13:1 air fuel for a few moments, ran to much timing, and capped off my rear manifold without removing the divider (high egt) along with ignoring the fact that my coolant temp in boost was above 260* on a regular basis

the motor still looked flawless expect for piston one which was one of 2 pistons that would have had alot of backpressure from the capped off rear manifold.

if you are careful, i think you can keep the motor alive for a long time with low boost.
 
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