Engine Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger - Page 2 - Turbo Dodge Forums : Turbo Dodge Forum for Turbo Mopars, Shelbys, Dodge Daytona, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Omni and more!
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post #16 of 41 Old 11-15-2018, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

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Originally Posted by NAJ View Post
Did you not say that the plugs from cylinders 3/4 were wet and fuel fouled?
If so are the plugs from cylinders 1/2 showing normal combustion?
#3 was wet. #4 looked normal, as did #1 and #2. Using the chart you provided, there is a slight possibility of some glazing, otherwise, all the plugs would be considered normal.

I even switched up the plugs to see if the issue was a plug and it would follow to a different cylinder. Same condition. #3 and #4 not firing.

I am going to put on my spark gap tester again and check each cylinders spark gap. I will report back once I can get into my garage since everything is covered in ice.

Thanks for the tops and links. Very helpful.
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post #17 of 41 Old 11-16-2018, 08:15 AM
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

After what you just stated and re-reading your original post it appears we are working with an issue that is only affecting one cylinder...
Ignition/Fuel/Compression/Cylinder Leakdown.

Although it is unlikely, if you do not find anything obvious check Fuel Pressure/FPR and Map Calibration.
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

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Originally Posted by NAJ View Post
After what you just stated and re-reading your original post it appears we are working with an issue that is only affecting one cylinder...
Ignition/Fuel/Compression/Cylinder Leakdown.

Although it is unlikely, if you do not find anything obvious check Fuel Pressure/FPR and Map Calibration.
Well, I'm not sure at this point. I hooked up my Spark Gap Tester.

On #3 I got spark at 35K easily. One #4 I got even better spark at 35K. So I am getting Spark.

So I put both plug wires back on. Started the engine. And while it was running, I pulled the plug on the #3 injector. No change in how the engine ran. With #3 unhooked, I pulled #4 injector harness. No change in how the engine ran, then after about 7 seconds, it quit. I plugged both harnesses back in. Cranked and it wouldn't start. (NOTE, I had not turned off the key) I turned off the key, and then it started again. So I pulled #4 injector by itself. No change in how the engine ran. Pulled #3 again, no change, but once again, after about 7 seconds, it quit.

Also, I hooked up my fuel pressure gauge. On Prime, it went to 55 psi, running at idle, 50 psi. When I tried to blipp the throttle, it went up, but I didn't want to run a stumbling engine.

I am so nervous about pulling the fuel rail. Anytime I work on this car, a new bolt breaks somewhere.

I am going to check to see if the auto parts store has a Loan A Tool for the leakdown kit.

Thoughts?
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post #19 of 41 Old 11-16-2018, 04:33 PM
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

To Recap...
Misfire condition, #3 cylinder and spark plug fuel fouled.
Since you have not found anything yet you need to verify basics before you get in too deep.
You verified spark and injector pulse, compression was at the minimum on a cold engine.
A leakdown test will help determine if there are any mechanical issues.
I would also suggest checking Cam Timing which can be done easily when you bring #1 cylinder to TDC on a compression stroke.

Leakdown test requires an air compressor.

If you have an air compressor that will maintain 100 PSI in the lines you can do the test without the gauge set since you are only interested in if/where cylinder pressure is leaking but not necessarily how much.

1)Remove all 4 plugs
2)Bring #1 cylinder up to TDC on a compression stroke.
3)Install the hose from your compression tester into # 1 cylinder.
4)Use something to hold the throttle wide open, remove the oil and radiator caps.
5)Connect your air hose to the hose from your compression tester.
6)Listen for air leaking from the oil cap opening (rings), throttle body(intake valve), exhaust(exhaust valve) and radiator(headgasket, cracked head/block).
7)Some leakage past the rings (from oil cap) is normal.
When done on cylinder 1 rotate the crank CW 90 degrees to bring #3 to TDC and repeat.
Repeat on cylinders 4 and 2.

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post #20 of 41 Old 11-16-2018, 06:11 PM
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

I don't know about doing a leak down test for repair of this issue. I unfortunately know that these engines run with busted ring landings and only 80 psi compression. compression IMO is not the cause of this issue. however taking the time to check timing is a good idea. I think all cylinders would be equally effected by a timing issue though.

what about the HEP? In theory it could be messing up the signals for the fuel and spark timing.

it's good to have a spare anyways.

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post #21 of 41 Old 11-20-2018, 12:25 PM
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

have you pulled the valve cover yet ?
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post #22 of 41 Old 11-21-2018, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

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Originally Posted by Chuguley View Post
have you pulled the valve cover yet ?
I haven't pulled it yet. Thanksgiving activities are keeping me busy.

Thanks
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post #23 of 41 Old 11-21-2018, 08:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

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Originally Posted by ratrace427 View Post

what about the HEP? In theory it could be messing up the signals for the fuel and spark timing.

it's good to have a spare anyways.

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I am trying to find my spare one. If we are talking about the same thing. You mean the Hall Effect disc that fits under the distributor cap? Correct?

Thanks
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post #24 of 41 Old 11-21-2018, 09:48 AM
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

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Originally Posted by donniegilbert View Post
I am trying to find my spare one. If we are talking about the same thing. You mean the Hall Effect disc that fits under the distributor cap? Correct?

Thanks
Yes that is correct, however...
Normally a HEP issue will create a no start or a condition that affects all 4 cylinders, not just one cylinder.
Generally the only way a HEP would/could cause a one cylinder misfire would be if there was an issue with the shutter wheel in the distributor.
You had good/strong spark at 35 KV so I highly doubt you have a HEP issue.

You have to follow a logical diagnostic sequence in order to locate the problem creating the condition, it is not advised to jump around system/circuits.
This issue should not be that difficult to diagnose, basically having the correct tools and diagnostic sequence makes things easier.
This whole procedure of verifying the BASICS should not take any longer than 1-2 hours.
(Compression, Cylinder Leakdown, Cam Timing, Ignition System Capability/Functionality, Fuel Pressure, Injector Balance Test)
If diagnosing the BASIC systems does not uncover the issue then checking Exhaust Backpressure, Air Intake Restrictions, MAP/CTS/TPS Calibration, Controller Power Feeds and Grounds are next.

RECAP...
1-Ignition System
a)Able to produce maximum of 40 KV on all four cylinders. - OK
b)Spark Plug, swap to another cylinder and see if the issue follows?
(Will show if the spark plug is the culprit)

2)Fuel System
a)Fuel Pressure? NOT COMPLETED
(Will not affect only one cylinder but needs to be in specs)
b)Injector Pulse - OK
c)Injector Balance Test? NOT COMPLETED
(Will show if all injectors are flowing the same amount of fuel per injector pulse)

3)Engine Mechanical
a)Compression - 100 PSI on All cylinders - OK
(Shows the engines ability to PRODUCE pressure)
b)Cylinder Leakdown Test? NOT COMPLETED
(Shows the engines ability to HOLD pressure)
(Will show leakage past a Head Gasket/Cylinder Head,Block Leak or Crack/Intake Valves/Exhaust Valves/Piston Rings)
c)Cam Timing - NOT COMPLETED
(Would normally affect all four cylinders but needs to be verified OK)

Once the Non-Completed Tests above are Performed, Then We Can Move On.

Have a GREAT Holiday!!!

Jan
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post #25 of 41 Old 11-25-2018, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAJ View Post



2)Fuel System
a)Fuel Pressure? NOT COMPLETED
(Will not affect only one cylinder but needs to be in specs)
b)Injector Pulse - OK
c)Injector Balance Test? NOT COMPLETED
(Will show if all injectors are flowing the same amount of fuel per injector pulse)

3)Engine Mechanical
a)Compression - 100 PSI on All cylinders - OK
(Shows the engines ability to PRODUCE pressure)
b)Cylinder Leakdown Test? NOT COMPLETED
(Shows the engines ability to HOLD pressure)
(Will show leakage past a Head Gasket/Cylinder Head,Block Leak or Crack/Intake Valves/Exhaust Valves/Piston Rings)
c)Cam Timing - NOT COMPLETED
(Would normally affect all four cylinders but needs to be verified OK)

Once the Non-Completed Tests above are Performed, Then We Can Move On.

Have a GREAT Holiday!!!
I was able to spend some time working on the car today. I am moving much slower as my right knee may require surgery, so I need to be cautious as to how I move.

I removed all four spark plugs. Started with #1 on TDC, used my 1.0 hp Craftsman air compressor with 7 gallon tank (it wasn't happy with me) to pressurize the cylinders.

#1 - hissing through the oil filler cap. No hissing in the throttle body or the exhaust. No bubbles in the radiator.
#2 - hissing through the oil filler cap. No hissing in the throttle body or the exhaust. No bubbles in the radiator.
#3 - hissing through the oil filler cap. No hissing in the throttle body or the exhaust. No bubbles in the radiator.
#4 - hissing through the oil filler cap. No hissing in the throttle body or the exhaust. No bubbles in the radiator.

I would say that the hissing was equal in sound on all four cylinders. HOWEVER.... when I pressurized #1, wow.... could I smell gasoline. I wonder if I have gas mixed with oil due to an injector that's leaking?

I didn't pull the front right tire yet to pull the belts and pulleys to verify timing. I did pull the top cover. With the distributor rotor pointing toward #1, the hole in the cam pulley lines up with the second raised fin on the valve cover, or about the 11:00 position.

In a previous test, the fuel pressure was 50 at idle.

I will work on it as much as I can, I can't stand on my knee for more than 20-30 minutes at a time though.

Thanks

I hope you all enjoyed Thanksgiving.
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post #26 of 41 Old 11-26-2018, 11:27 AM
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAJ View Post
Yes that is correct, however...
Normally a HEP issue will create a no start or a condition that affects all 4 cylinders, not just one cylinder.
Generally the only way a HEP would/could cause a one cylinder misfire would be if there was an issue with the shutter wheel in the distributor.
You had good/strong spark at 35 KV so I highly doubt you have a HEP issue.

(Compression, Cylinder Leakdown, Cam Timing, Ignition System Capability/Functionality, Fuel Pressure, Injector Balance Test)
If diagnosing the BASIC systems does not uncover the issue then checking Exhaust Backpressure, Air Intake Restrictions, MAP/CTS/TPS Calibration, Controller Power Feeds and Grounds are next.

RECAP...
1-Ignition System
a)Able to produce maximum of 40 KV on all four cylinders. - OK
b)Spark Plug, swap to another cylinder and see if the issue follows?
(Will show if the spark plug is the culprit)

2)Fuel System
a)Fuel Pressure - 50 PSI @ idle - OK
(Will not affect only one cylinder but needs to be in specs)
b)Injector Pulse - OK
c)Injector Balance Test? NOT COMPLETED
(Will show if all injectors are flowing the same amount of fuel per injector pulse)

3)Engine Mechanical
a)Compression - 100 PSI on All cylinders - OK
(Shows the engines ability to PRODUCE pressure)
b)Cylinder Leakdown Test? - Slight Pressure Loss Past Rings (Normal) - OK
(Shows the engines ability to HOLD pressure)
(Will show leakage past a Head Gasket/Cylinder Head,Block Leak or Crack/Intake Valves/Exhaust Valves/Piston Rings)
c)Cam Timing - NOT COMPLETED
(Would normally affect all four cylinders but needs to be verified OK)
1B - Spark Plug
2C - Injector Balance
If you do not have access to an injector tester you may have to swap the injector to another cylinder to see if the problem moves with the injector.
3C -Cam Timing
Everything was checked correctly and Cam Timing is OK as long as you were sure that the timing mark on the Bell Housing was at "0" which would be true TDC.

Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger-upper-timing-cover.jpg

Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger-image-timing-marks-2.jpg


Just to put this out there...
In my 30+ years of working on cars I have seen strange things so trying another "known good" HEP cannot hurt.

Hope You Feel Better!!!

Jan
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post #27 of 41 Old 12-14-2018, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

I finally had a few moments with the car today. And it didn't go well.

Installed a new HEP, plugs, wires, cap and rotor. Now I have NO SPARK AT ALL !!! I don't even have spark coming from the coil.

I will state that the connectors of my wiring harness where the HEP plugs in soesn't look good. The contacts look worn, spread apart, and just ugly. The plugs don't even fit tight into one another. So are there any of those connectors out there for sale ??? I think I need new ones.

I did not check to see if I have injector pulse with the new HEP. I was just so frustrated...... ARRRRGGGGGGGGGGGG !!!!!
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post #28 of 41 Old 12-14-2018, 10:29 PM
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

I tried replacing my HEP plugs under the battery box and it's a pain finding good ones. then after finding decent ones I still thought they were a problem later because they were not perfect.i also paid $50 for that entire engine harness for those plugs. buy water tight plugs of a different style, cut and solder those in. it will forever remove that issue from your brain. you will have a problem with something again but not those two plugs. as for the ones that plug into the HEP I used a pick and insured they were getting a good bite by bending the little tabs on the inside.

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post #29 of 41 Old 12-14-2018, 10:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

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Originally Posted by ratrace427 View Post
buy water tight plugs of a different style, cut and solder those in.
Do you know what make, model, year had the plugs that you are describing? I could start my search there.

Did Turbo II engines use the same HEP connections?

Thanks
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post #30 of 41 Old 12-15-2018, 08:55 AM
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Re: Broken Camshaft ??? 1987 SHELBY Charger

All turbo HEP's from 86-92 are the same. (T-1, T-2, T-4)

If you had spark before the above repairs were made and now you do not chances are the issue is related to the repair.

Problem here is that aftermarket HEP's are hit or miss as being good/bad.
You always need to have a "Known Good" HEP on hand.
My spare HEP is only used if the one in the car dies and then it comes back out when I get another replacement.

(CAUTION!!!, DO NOT place any sharp bends in the HEP wiring as the factory had it or internal damage to the wiring will occur)

Do you have a Code 11 (will be in memory after battery disconnect before cranking the engine and should go away once engine is cranked) or a Code 54 in memory?

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