No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok - Page 6 - Turbo Dodge Forums : Turbo Dodge Forum for Turbo Mopars, Shelbys, Dodge Daytona, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Omni and more!
Turbo Dodge Help Urgent help when something goes wrong with your Dodge and you can't figure out what the problem is. Troubleshooting help and the place to post when you're stuck with a broken car and have to get to work the next day.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #76 of 94 Old 09-24-2019, 02:59 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: salt lake city
 
My Ride: 1992 Dodge Daytona
Engine: 3.0 L
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

That CTS was the V between the two wires. I didn't check to the battery. I'm expecting to learn shortly that was a mistake.



Just looked at the schematics and the BK/LB wire on the CTS goes to the sensor ground so maybe im ok...
edthatalkinhors is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #77 of 94 Old 09-24-2019, 05:06 PM
NAJ
Just A Guy

 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,069
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by edthatalkinhors View Post
Now everything is plugged in. Did both key on and off out of curiosity.

TPS, closed throttle & open throttle:
Key on: 0.02-0.12 V
key off: 0.012-0.073 V

CTS:
Key on: 0.094 V
key off: 0.058 V
You can only check sensor voltages with the Key On.
Your voltage readings are both Low.
Be sure your meter is on a 20 volt scale.
Be sure the TPS. CTS and controller connectors are all connected.

TPS voltage at closed throttle should be reading between .30 - .90 volts.
At WOT the TPS should be reading above 3.50 volts.
(Cavity #2 OR/DB and Cavity #3 BK/LB)

Also voltage at the CTS is low, 9/100 of a volt???

Verify these readings and if they read the same as what you posted...
1)Connect the black lead of your meter to the - Battery.
2)With the Red lead backprobe Cavity #2 of the TPS connector and the TN/BK at the CTS.
(Be sure your backprobe is making a good connection with the connector terminals.)
3)Is voltage still reading low?

Jan
1990 Daytona Shelby VNT

40 Years ASE Certified (Retired)
NAJ is offline  
post #78 of 94 Old 09-24-2019, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: salt lake city
 
My Ride: 1992 Dodge Daytona
Engine: 3.0 L
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

Did it all again. Double checked:
1) The key is on
2) Continuity (<1.0 ohm) between the back probes at the sensor connectors and the relevant cavity at the SBEC connector. Checked with key off.
3) Everything connected (TPS, CTS, MAP, SBEC)
3) Signal wires are not continuous with the sensor ground cavity at the SBEC
4) I am reading the decimal point on the multimeter correctly
5) Good multimeter ground at the battery

TPS: 0.024 - 0.124
CTS: 0.086

Also backprobed the VT/WT at the TPS. 0.15 V to battery neg. I know this was 5V reference when unplugged, don't know what is expected when plugged in.
edthatalkinhors is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #79 of 94 Old 09-25-2019, 08:25 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy

 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,069
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

All voltage tests are done with the Key On.

You are correct and I totally forgot...
When you ran the "No Response" test (NS-8A) there was not a 5 volt reference present at the TPS or Map Sensor and the flow chart eventually lead to replace the engine controller.

Since then we have...
1)Relay Power
a)Checked and Verified Both Power Feeds showed 12 volts at the ASD (Ign/Inj) and Fuel Pump Relay's.
2)Relay Ground Side Control DB/YL Wire
a)Checked and Verified Continuity on The DB/YL Wire From Relay To Relay and from each Relay to the Engine Controller.
3) Fuel Pump Relay Power Output DG/BK Wire
Checked and Verified Continuity on the DG/BK Wire from the Fuel Pump Relay to the Fuel Pump Connector and to the O2 Sensor Connector.
4)Controller Power and Ground Circuits
a)Checked and Verified All Controller Power Feeds and Grounds as outlined in Test "NF-9A".

Conclusions at this point.
1)We do not have a 5 Volt Reference at any sensors (Map/TPS/CTS)
2)We are attempting to verify that the controller is at fault as stated in test NS-8A.

If there is anything you do not agree with or feel you need to recheck...
If not then we are moving on.

Jan
1990 Daytona Shelby VNT

40 Years ASE Certified (Retired)
NAJ is offline  
post #80 of 94 Old 09-25-2019, 08:35 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy

 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,069
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

We are only running these next tests to attempt to verify that the engine controller is at fault since we do not have a scanner nor can we retrieve fault codes.

The next test is "No Reference Signal During Cranking".
The Engine Controller will not actuate the ASD (Ign/Inj) and Fuel Pump Relays until it see's a Crank (RPM) and Cam (Fuel Sync) Signal.
The Signals in this case on a 3.0L are from the Electronics in the Distributor.
This test will test the distributor and wiring.
Will it lead to "Replace Engine Controller"?

No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok-test-ns-9a-1.jpg

No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok-test-ns-9a-2.jpg

No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok-test-ns-9a-3.jpg

No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok-test-ns-9a-4.jpg

No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok-test-ns-9b-1.jpg

No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok-test-ns-9b-2.jpg

No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok-test-ns-9c-1.jpg

No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok-test-ns-9c-2.jpg

Jan
1990 Daytona Shelby VNT

40 Years ASE Certified (Retired)
NAJ is offline  
post #81 of 94 Old 09-25-2019, 09:58 AM
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Cumberland Ontario Canada
 
My Ride: 83 Rampage DC
Engine: 2.2 turbo 1 intercooled by MP
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 96
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

In the event you have to replace, I do not know if this helps, I still am hoping it is not the smec.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-1995-D...wAAOSwIaFZHzhx
Rampageproject is offline  
post #82 of 94 Old 09-25-2019, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: salt lake city
 
My Ride: 1992 Dodge Daytona
Engine: 3.0 L
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

Your summary is correct to my knowledge, NAJ.

Did test NS-9A. Never saw spark at the coil cable. Spark ground was the alternator. GY/BK wire not open and not shorted to ground.

"Replace the engine controller."

Aside from the cost (Rockauto has a remanufactured on for 165.79), is replacing the SBEC especially difficult? I don't have to program it or anything right?
edthatalkinhors is offline  
post #83 of 94 Old 09-25-2019, 04:59 PM
NAJ
Just A Guy

 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,069
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

What is the part # on your engine controller?
It is a 7 digit # starting with a 4.
NAJ is offline  
post #84 of 94 Old 09-25-2019, 06:04 PM
NAJ
Just A Guy

 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,069
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

DO NOT, I REPEAT, DO NOT by an aftermarket controller.

I was/am helping another member who also needs a controller. (Power Module for an 87 GLHS)
He originally bought a remanufactured controller (Cardone) from Rock Auto for whatever problem he was having and thought the controller was his issue.
After installing the aftermarket controller he encountered other issues and then I posted diagnostics for the issue he was having.
After posting diagnostics for him they led to replace engine controller.
He contacted Rock Auto, returned the defective controller and they sent him another controller which was in worse shape than the first one.
I told him that when I first saw his post about installing an aftermarket controller that it made me Cringe.
I also told him that Autozone kicked Cardone to the curb because of quality issues with ALL of their products, especially Engine Controllers.
When I was the Commercial Sales Manager at AZ (2012- 2018) we sometimes had to order 3-4 controllers before we got one that was good, you can imagine how pissed off the commercial accounts (shops) were with this and obviously their customers also.

The Original Mopar Part # for your controller is 4778002, that part # has been superseded a few times.
Supersession(s): 04714254; 04686284; 04741018; 04778002; 04639472; 04723525; 04672128

My recommendation is to find a Used/NOS/Working Mopar SBEC.

1)Found These Online
a)https://www.epartsland.com/products/...mputer-4714254
b)https://www.rearcounter.com/R4778002-parts744973.html
The "R" in front of the part # indicates "Rebuilt by Mopar" and these units were sold at dealerships, they have since been discontinued by Chrysler.
I have dealt with RPN (the seller on RearCounter.com) in the past.
I purchased a Mopar Clutch Cable from them, they were friendly, not expensive and the part arrived quickly, I would use them again.

2)Open a thread in the "Parts Wanted" section.

3)Check your Local JY.

Jan
1990 Daytona Shelby VNT

40 Years ASE Certified (Retired)
NAJ is offline  
post #85 of 94 Old 09-25-2019, 06:15 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: salt lake city
 
My Ride: 1992 Dodge Daytona
Engine: 3.0 L
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

So I guess we've checked everything. SBEC it is!

Good warning on the Cardone. That's exactly the one that was available on rockauto. I'll check that part number the next chance I get.
edthatalkinhors is offline  
post #86 of 94 Old 09-25-2019, 06:33 PM
NAJ
Just A Guy

 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,069
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

There is really nothing left to check.

1)Vehicle cranks but will not start.
2)CEL will not flash codes.
3)No 5 Volt Reference to any sensors.
4)No output from either the ASD or Fuel Pump Relay.

Just for "giggles" ground the DB/YL wire on the underside of the PDC at the ASD (IGN/INJ) Relay and turn the key "on".
(Relays have to be in place and the controller needs to be connected)
Do you now have power at the fuel pump connector (or hear the fuel pump running if connected) and at the + coil (DG/OR wire)?

Jan
1990 Daytona Shelby VNT

40 Years ASE Certified (Retired)
NAJ is offline  
post #87 of 94 Old 09-26-2019, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: salt lake city
 
My Ride: 1992 Dodge Daytona
Engine: 3.0 L
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAJ View Post
What is the part # on your engine controller?
It is a 7 digit # starting with a 4.
Pulled it out today. Unfortunately the only label I can find on it (on the elbow) is degraded to the point of being entirely unreadable.
edthatalkinhors is offline  
post #88 of 94 Old 09-27-2019, 11:02 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy

 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,069
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

Refer back to Post #84.

Were you able to ground the DB/YL wire at the ASD (Ign/Inj) relay?
(See Post #86)
NAJ is offline  
post #89 of 94 Old 09-27-2019, 05:12 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: salt lake city
 
My Ride: 1992 Dodge Daytona
Engine: 3.0 L
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 58
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

Actually I think I'm able to see a "467" so it was probably that last number, "04672128"

Yes, grounding the blue-yellow ran the pump.

RPN is selling the rebuilt one for $273. Comparing that with the "came out of a running lightly crashed 92 lebaron" for $130, I'm not sure that doubling the price gets me much. From what I've read its pretty rare for SBECs to fail in the first place. I'm probably ok getting the one from the lebaron, right?
edthatalkinhors is offline  
post #90 of 94 Old 09-28-2019, 08:21 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy

 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,069
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: No voltage at fuel pump, but relays and fuses all ok

You should be, are they giving you any type of warranty such as "it works".
NAJ is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Turbo Dodge Forums : Turbo Dodge Forum for Turbo Mopars, Shelbys, Dodge Daytona, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Omni and more! forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Member names may only be composed of alpha-numeric characters. (A-Z and 0-9)

!!ATTENTION ADVERTISERS!! If you intend on advertising anything on this forum, whatsoever, you are required to first contact us here . Additionaly, we do NOT allow BUSINESS NAMES unless you are an Authorized Vendor. If you own a business, and want to do sales on this site via posting or private message, you will need to follow the rules. Shops, Stores, Distributors, Group Buys without being authorized will see your account terminated.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome