Engine struggles up hill - Turbo Dodge Forums : Turbo Dodge Forum for Turbo Mopars, Shelbys, Dodge Daytona, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Omni and more!
Engine - General, Exhaust & Induction Topics about the general engine items, exhaust system discussed here & Improving the intake tract - air filter to intake valve.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 28 Old 10-22-2019, 09:14 AM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: new england
 
My Ride: 1986 chrysler T&C
Engine: 2.5
Induct: N/A
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Garage
Engine struggles up hill

Morning everybody, So recently on my 1986 LeBaron 2.5L non-turbo engine I have noticed a sufficient loss in performance. My first thought was transmission, but then I started to hear what sounded like a tincan rattling with BBs in it when I put the car underload or when the car has to downshift going up hills. My mph are horrible now. I've never really heard what engine knock actually sounds like but I'm assuming what I'm hearing is the engine pinging

I cant for the life of me figure out exactly what the problem is but here my thoughts:

-bad fuel filter?
-low compression?
-slipping tranny?

The fuel filter is definitely original, I'm looking to change this today. What's the best way to depressurized this system?

otherwise, I'm stumped..
ChryslerTC1986 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 28 Old 10-22-2019, 09:57 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy


 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,063
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: Engine struggles up hill

The noise ("tin can rattling with BB's in it") you are hearing is "detonation" and it is being caused by a lean fuel mixture.

You need to check the basics...
1)Fuel Pressure (14-16 PSI)
(You can rent a fuel pressure gauge at AZ)

2)Cam Timing
https://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4...n-84-95-a.html

3)Exhaust Backpressure (Restricted Cat)
NAJ is offline  
post #3 of 28 Old 10-22-2019, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: new england
 
My Ride: 1986 chrysler T&C
Engine: 2.5
Induct: N/A
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Garage
hmmm.. I do know right off the bat that the cat converter is definitely busted. it rattles (not heat shield) and seems to effect the engine. but it's been like that since I got the car (hasn't been a high priority fix) and the engine issue just started a week ago..
ChryslerTC1986 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 28 Old 10-22-2019, 11:38 AM
Super Pope


 
The Pope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Spokane WA
 
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 10,118
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Images: 5
     
Your cat either died enough to turn the catalyst sideways or you lost cam timing on s loose belt. Should get rid of the cat and add a 2 1/4 exhaust on it. Next is fuel which is a pain as you'll need to see the pressure under a load. The filter is a given. But s sudden not on going lose is different. Pump died, skipped a tooth, cat flipped. That type of thing. Filter is a gradual loss.
The Pope is offline  
post #5 of 28 Old 10-22-2019, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: new england
 
My Ride: 1986 chrysler T&C
Engine: 2.5
Induct: N/A
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Garage
Re: Engine struggles up hill

Hmm.. Naj, by the sounds/looks of it this whole cam timing scenario seems daunting.. possible for a novice mechanic to do?

Also, Mr. Pope, this whole concern with testing fuel pressure under load -- why do you say it is a PITA?


I lack my manual at the moment so care to explain the best procedure for:
-diagnosing Cam timing?
-testing fuel pressure underload

The cat swap for a section of 2 1/4" exhaust seems relatively straight forward.

Also... what?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pope View Post
But s sudden not on going lose is different.
?? lol
ChryslerTC1986 is offline  
post #6 of 28 Old 10-23-2019, 10:48 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy


 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,063
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: Engine struggles up hill

1)You stated that this is a 2.5L TBI car and Pope may think this is a turbo car, 2 1/4" exhaust is not going to really do anything for a TBI car, which would also explain why he mentioned fuel pressure under load, on a turbo car rail pressure changes constantly as engine vacuum/pressure changes, on a TBI car pressure remains constant under all driving/load conditions, however...
Since your driveabilty issue is under load it is a good idea to check fuel pressure under load to be absolutely sure.

2)To check fuel pressure under load you would need to connect the fuel pressure gauge underhood at the TBI fuel inlet and run the gauge out from underhood and tape the gauge to the windshield and go for a ride (with a helper) and drive under the conditions where the problem is present and see if fuel pressure drops.

3)Cam Timing on the 2.2L/2.5L engines can be done by a Novice and is really not that difficult, gaining access is all nuts and bolts, aligning the marks properly make take a few tries to get it correct, we have all been there.
Also, the 2.2L/2.5L engines are non-interference engines so no worries there.
Checking Cam Timing is relatively simple.
1)Disconnect and isolate the - battery cable.
2)Remove the upper timing cover
(2 nuts on the valve cover and 1 bolt where the upper cover meets the lower cover)
(Inspect the belt for missing teeth while the cover is off)
3)Remove all 4 spark plugs.
4)Bring the piston on #1 cylinder to TDC on a compression stroke (distributor rotor pointing to #1 cylinder on the distributor cap.
5)Align the mark on the bellhousing timing marker with "0".
6)Check to see if the Cam sprocket is at the 12 o'clock position with the cylinder head.
This is the tricky part, the cylinder head is on an angle so the mark will not be 12-6. it will be close to 11-5.
(See the illustrations, if you are not sure take a pic)

4)Over the years I have seen strange things with cars, although you have been driving with no issues until recently if the Cat got worse it could be moving and blocking the exhaust when going up hill (Gravity), I have also seen foreign objects in fuel tanks that caused a problem when it moved to a certain position(we found a bee in the fuel tank of a Ford Truck that caused problems when turning).
The only way to find the cause of your issue is diagnose all of the systems and eliminate them as the cause, there are no shortcuts, if you say "it can't be that so I am just going to assume it is good and move on" you may have just bypassed your problem and then you will "be in so far you cannot see the forest for the trees", Been There, Done That!!!

Engine struggles up hill-engine-timing-belt-mark-alignment.jpg

Engine struggles up hill-upper-timing-cover.jpg

Engine struggles up hill-image-distributor.jpg

Engine struggles up hill-image-timing-marks-2.jpg

Jan
1990 Daytona Shelby VNT

40 Years ASE Certified (Retired)
NAJ is offline  
post #7 of 28 Old 10-23-2019, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: new england
 
My Ride: 1986 chrysler T&C
Engine: 2.5
Induct: N/A
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Garage
Sorry I meant to specify this but my Wagon is nonturbo. it's actually standard 2.5L
ChryslerTC1986 is offline  
post #8 of 28 Old 10-23-2019, 11:08 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy


 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,063
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: Engine struggles up hill

You did mention that it was a TBI car in your opening sentence.

"my 1986 LeBaron 2.5L non-turbo engine"

Not saying he did but sometimes we tend to read right past those things, we all do it.
NAJ is offline  
post #9 of 28 Old 10-25-2019, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: new england
 
My Ride: 1986 chrysler T&C
Engine: 2.5
Induct: N/A
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by NAJ View Post
4)Bring the piston on #1 cylinder to TDC on a compression stroke (distributor rotor pointing to #1 cylinder on the distributor cap.

5)Align the mark on the bellhousing timing marker with "0".

6)Check to see if the Cam sprocket is at the 12 o'clock position with the cylinder head.
4) How exactly does one "bring the piston to TDC"?
5) How exactly does one "align the mark..."?
6) Is this a visual "check"? or some other kind of check

tomorrow is likely I'll check fuel pressure.

Attached is the walkthrough on testing fuel pressure from my Haynes manual. Any objections to how this is described? the spec on pressure is 36psi for 1984 through 1986 single point 2.5L engines.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20191025_213940~2_1572054076959.jpg
Views:	7
Size:	55.9 KB
ID:	255881  
ChryslerTC1986 is offline  
post #10 of 28 Old 10-26-2019, 09:45 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy


 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,063
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: Engine struggles up hill

To bring the piston to TDC on a compression stroke you need to remove the spark plugs and then use a socket and ratchet on the crankshaft nut to turn the crankshaft clockwise until the piston is at the top of its stroke, then you align the mark on the flywheel with 0 on the timing window marker but slowly moving the crankshaft until the marks align and you are at top dead center.

The easiest way to be sure you are on a compression stroke is to place your thumb over the open spark plug hole for #1 cylinder and have a helper just "tap" the key until you feel the air push on your thumb, you are now on a compression stroke, follow the instructions above.
(Be careful of the ignition wires do not get shocked, I would recommend just removing the distributor cap and wires and placing it out of the way.)

Your Haynes manual is incorrect, AFAIK Chrysler only used high pressure TBI in 84/85 and switched to low pressure TBI in 86.

This is from Donavans Dodge Garage
1984-1985
"The first two years of TBI FI used a single high pressure (36 psi) injector mounted in a throttle body, "slider" camshaft and fairly crude electronics. The 1984 year had oddball "stud" connectors for the coolant sensor which was done away with in 1985. 1985 introduced the GM style weatherpak connectors for the sensors which are still in use to this day. Logic modules & power modules between 84 and 85 are not interchangeable. Headbolt fastener size is 10 mm for the 84-85 model year."

1986-1988
"1986 introduced the new low pressure (15 psi), low profile TBI FI setup."

The Dodge Garage
Scroll to EFI Database and click on it, go to Overview.

Just some friendly advice...
Dump the Haynes Manual and invest in the FSM's (Factory Service Manuals).
You can find them used on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Servic...YAAOSw5e5ddfw8

Jan
1990 Daytona Shelby VNT

40 Years ASE Certified (Retired)
NAJ is offline  
post #11 of 28 Old 10-26-2019, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: new england
 
My Ride: 1986 chrysler T&C
Engine: 2.5
Induct: N/A
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Garage
I went ahead and bought those manuals. definitely a good call thanks for the link

been in the process of hooking up the fuel pressure gauge to test today. replace the lines because they were old. then I found a hose which wasn't connected to anything, by my deduction it looks like a purge hose. do you know where that goes? Is it supposed to hook up to anything? the hose look like it was connected to throttle body down to the left of the return fuel line.

I attached a few pictures plus the vac diagram in case that helps.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Polish_20191028_083746169_1572268393563.jpg
Views:	7
Size:	53.9 KB
ID:	255893   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20191028_081541_1572268417039.jpg
Views:	7
Size:	40.1 KB
ID:	255895   Click image for larger version

Name:	vac-na-86_1572268439329.jpg
Views:	9
Size:	100.7 KB
ID:	255897  

Last edited by ChryslerTC1986; 10-28-2019 at 09:14 AM.
ChryslerTC1986 is offline  
post #12 of 28 Old 10-28-2019, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: new england
 
My Ride: 1986 chrysler T&C
Engine: 2.5
Induct: N/A
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Garage
scratch that previous message. I figured it out.

did my fuel pressure test. floated around 14 PSI -- drifted only slightly down to just above 12 psi but never lower. so I assume that is okay, even when It was under load.

I think my next best bet is to take care of the cat
ChryslerTC1986 is offline  
post #13 of 28 Old 10-29-2019, 09:27 AM
NAJ
Just A Guy


 
NAJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
 
My Ride: 1990 Daytona Shelby
Engine: 2.2 L VNT
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 15.570

Posts: 24,063
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
       
Re: Engine struggles up hill

The spec is 14-16 so 12 is slightly low, however we do not know the accuracy of the gauge you were using.

As long as fuel pressure remained constant when under load with the problem present then you can safely remove fuel pressure from the list as a cause, however...

Just to err on the side of caution...
If the fuel filter is old or you do not know its age you should probably replace it.
Also, did you replace the fuel lines under the car as well as underhood?
NAJ is offline  
post #14 of 28 Old 10-29-2019, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
TD New Guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: new england
 
My Ride: 1986 chrysler T&C
Engine: 2.5
Induct: N/A
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 32
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
 
Garage
yeah it seemed to me the gauge moved mainly due to bumps while driving. The gauge went in intervals of 2 (4 tick marks between each whole number 0||||10||||20||||etc.) so not the most accurate yet still decent enough to get a reading. I replaced the fuel filter prior to testing. the only lines I changed were the fuel hoses by filter and throttle body. I haven't tried replaced any metal lines. the lines running from tank to underhood are as flaky as baklava with corrosion. They most likely should be changed, as much as I would love to be the one to do so I have neither the time nor understanding as to how to do so.
ChryslerTC1986 is offline  
post #15 of 28 Old 10-29-2019, 11:06 AM
Old School Hot Rodder
 
85lebaront2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Exmore, Va
 
My Ride: 1986 LeBaron Vert
Engine: MOPAR 2.2L
Induct: Turbo
1/4: 0.000

Posts: 1,426
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
   
Garage
Re: Engine struggles up hill

I would get the catalytic converter checked. I had a 1987 Horizon with the 2.2L carbureted engine, the converter on it disintegrated and it would periodically not get out of it's own way. Turned out a large chunk would get across the outlet and block it. A new converter solved the problem.
85lebaront2 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Turbo Dodge Forums : Turbo Dodge Forum for Turbo Mopars, Shelbys, Dodge Daytona, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Omni and more! forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Member names may only be composed of alpha-numeric characters. (A-Z and 0-9)

!!ATTENTION ADVERTISERS!! If you intend on advertising anything on this forum, whatsoever, you are required to first contact us here . Additionaly, we do NOT allow BUSINESS NAMES unless you are an Authorized Vendor. If you own a business, and want to do sales on this site via posting or private message, you will need to follow the rules. Shops, Stores, Distributors, Group Buys without being authorized will see your account terminated.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome