Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor? - Page 4 - Turbo Dodge Forums : Turbo Dodge Forum for Turbo Mopars, Shelbys, Dodge Daytona, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Omni and more!
Engine Management, Fuel, Spark, EGTs, and Air/Fuel Ratios This forum includes general electrical, modification, tuning, repair, replacement, identification and restoration of all components mentioned above including SMEC, SBEC, Logic Modules, aftermarket engine management, etc. Nitrous oxide posts go in here. This is the place

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post #46 of 80 Old 11-27-2017, 05:15 AM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

If it is an ND did you take 15 minutes to actually check the brushes?
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post #47 of 80 Old 11-27-2017, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Brushes had a lot left on them to the point I was thinking the previous owner put in new brushes. Nothing appeared worn, burnt or broken. Forgot to mention when testing battery post voltage I checked for AC v with engine running. It read 24 v, thought "no way" so checked at alternator, same result. Still didn't believe it so tested with a different meter & same thing. A manual stated if more than 1v it's bad diodes. Should have the replacement alternator in soon. Trickled charged the battery up again and hope that much AC v didn't damage it or anything else. Fingers crossed this fixes everything.
Thanks guys. DDBob.
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post #48 of 80 Old 11-27-2017, 11:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Exhausting.
Tonight pulled everything apart, re-cleaned all cable connections, grounds & mounts, checked wire resistance (.4 of an ohm, as good as my meter gets). With re-manufactured alternator & battery drip charged to 12.7 V we tested, worked for about 16 miles with AF starting around 14.5 then eventually crept down to 10.2. Now I noticed voltage dropping & lights dimming. Everything points to that as voltage drops AF ratio decreases. Checked battery voltage & down to 11.6 V again, headlights wouldn't even retract. Checked at alternator with engine running & only 7.8V! Yah, I don't understand how it can be 7.8V at the source and 11.6V at the battery either. Shop manual has a ton on alternator failure & states the ECU contains the voltage regulator. As previously stated I have a spare stage 3 ECU from FWDPerformance and it did the same thing. Also notice the alternator field terminal R3-DG goes from to Power Module first then to the ECU. I replaced the PM about 5 years ago. Before re-doing everything again & slogging through all that testing I'll take the alternator back & have them test it, maybe I got lucky & it's a bad one.
Bed time. DDBob.
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post #49 of 80 Old 11-27-2017, 11:38 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Bob, you might want to check the sub harness going from negative battery to the alternator. Obviously something isn't right. There is a crimp that the factory uses that can come apart for the ground wire. Hang in there you ARE making progress! You now know why it is going pig rich. Now you just need to find out what wire(s) or component that has failed. Might also want to load test battery after recharging just to make sure.
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post #50 of 80 Old 11-28-2017, 05:47 AM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Yes...
Injector Pulse Width Increases as Battery Voltage Decreases.

1)Have your new alternator tested to be sure it is OK.
2)If you are using a chain such as AZ take your battery with you and have it charged and tested for FREE.
3)Once you know the Battery and Alternator are both good then run the Proper Charging System diagnostics.
1)What Charging Codes were set? (41, 44, 46, 47 or a combination of codes?)
(Naturally you clear them every time you disconnect the battery)
2)If you need/want the Proper Charging System Diagnostics send me your e-mail address through PM.

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post #51 of 80 Old 11-30-2017, 05:47 AM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Basically this is how the charging system works.
Check the voltages when the car is running fine and then again when it acts up and lets see what is changing.

1)BK Wire - Battery Voltage through Fusible Link
2)DG - There are two DG wires...
a)Field Power - Constant Battery Voltage from Ignition Switch
b)Field Control - Pulse Width Control from PM (Test Lamp should Flash On/Off)
c)BK/WT - Ground, Verify Continuity to Ground (less than 5 ohms)
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post #52 of 80 Old 12-06-2017, 04:18 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Your e-mail confused me, not really sure what you were telling me.
Lets be sure we are on the same page since this thread has gone from O2 Sensors to Fuel Pressure to Head Gaskets to Charging issues.

1)We are working on an 87 Daytona with a 91 2.5L Turbo?
Yes
No
2)The 91 engine transplant is using the original 87 wiring and 87 engine controllers?
Yes
No
3)The issue we are working on right now is "Charging Voltage Is Low"?
Yes
No
4)The battery was charged and tested and verified to be OK?
Yes
No
4)The replacement alternator was tested and verified to be OK?
Yes
No

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post #53 of 80 Old 12-07-2017, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

1)We are working on an 87 Daytona with a 91 2.5L Turbo? Yes
2)The 91 engine transplant is using the original 87 wiring and 87 engine controllers? Yes, with FWDPerformance ECU.
3)The issue we are working on right now is "Charging Voltage Is Low"? Yes
4)The battery was charged and tested and verified to be OK? Yes Twice
5)The replacement alternator was tested and verified to be OK? Yes 4 times

Worked on it tonight for 3 hours, doesn't sound like much but it's 33 degrees. I started over, took apart the wire bundle, inspected & tested wires between the alternator to 8 pin connector then to the battery and they tested OK. Not EZ, shop manual diagram fooled me as it's a mirror image of reality, I believe what's in the car is original and the manuals diagram was a misprint. Wire colors are correct so I used those to diagnose.
Next was to specifically identify F1 & F2 on the alternator. Previously, of the 2 small posts, F1 was ID'd as above F2. Manual again "appeared" not to match what was in the car but by that point I was frozen so called it a night. Hopefully tomorrow I'll get the day off so I can at least confirm which is F1 & F2.
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post #54 of 80 Old 12-07-2017, 06:03 AM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

You could have checked all of that with an ohm meter.
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post #55 of 80 Old 01-01-2018, 09:39 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

got your pm. my laptop died a while back and have no td stuff on this one. give me a day or so to research things and we'll get you charging again.
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post #56 of 80 Old 01-02-2018, 05:10 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBob View Post
Prior to changes there were no key codes, after changes they are 12, 15, 16, 41 & 47. After looking up the codes I think they did that because the O2 & FPR were replaced and the battery was getting low.
lets start here. codes 16, 41, and 47 are all charging codes. your message said you want to put an external regulator on. first we need to make sure the battery wire to the alternator and the ground to the alternator are good.

hook your volt meter to the fully charged battery engine off. record the reading. then move just the positive volt meter probe to the positive terminal on the alternator record the reading. it should be within .1 of the battery reading. now move it back to the battery and move the negative probe to the alternator case. record the reading and again should be no more then .1 of the battery. now leave that probe on the alternator case and move the positive meter probe to the alternator positive post. record reading and again should be within .1 volt.

now with both leads on the alternator start the engine and record the reading.

post back with those readings and it will help me know what we need to do next.

here is a good site to look up codes and get an explanation. It was written by a guy that use to be here a lot. when it lost its hosting a member here saved the site by hosting it himself. http://minimopar.net/

Tim

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post #57 of 80 Old 01-03-2018, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

It Lives!!! Thanks everybody.
I'm using the external voltage regulator.
From Charger R/Ts suggestion I studied the minmopar pages & realized something basic had to be wrong. That the little voice in my head was right when it was saying, "It can't work the way you've been instructed, by what's in the manuals & what's really there." Step by step I codified the information, compared, found numerous conflicts & errors, corrected & re-wired. Started right up with 15.2 V at the alternator output and 14.9 V at the battery posts. My concern is 15.2 V may be too much voltage as I've read it's supposed to be 15.1 V max. After getting to this point I don't want to blow something up. Adjustable VRs are pretty cheap but so am I & don't want to purchase one unnecessarily. I drove it for about 15 minutes with lights, rear defroster, radio & fan on. Battery stayed fully charged & air/fuel mixture bounced happily between 14.2 to 15.
Tomorrow I'll put all the wires back into the looms and take it for a longer drive.
If everything works out OK I'll post how I did it.
Thanks again!
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post #58 of 80 Old 01-04-2018, 11:16 AM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Good to hear that the problem is solved. Happy for you! Yeah 15.1 volts would be to high for me if battery is fully charged. I'd be concerned about cooking your battery with that much voltage on a sustained basis. On a good note, your headlights are probably nice and bright (lol). IMO, your about one volt too high. IIRC, DRBII volt goal is around 14.0.
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post #59 of 80 Old 01-05-2018, 08:13 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

take a voltage reading from the one wire on the regulator that is keyed 12v+ to the regulator case see if that voltage is a little lower.
Tim
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post #60 of 80 Old 01-06-2018, 12:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Thanks Tim.
I think I tested both Fields on alternator case & both were lower. Don't remember exactly so I'll do it again and be comparing my meter readings with a Fluke meter I'm going to borrow. Been working OT the last few days so couldn't work on it. Looking forward to getting all the wires back into their looms tomorrow. Instructions on how to do this swap was very sketchy so possibly I've done something wrong. The external VR's ignition wire I spliced into the Power Modules (PM) “J2” switched 12v Ignition Input Voltage, Field 1, PM 10pin Cavity 2, wire = 14DB. I did not disconnect the original PM 10-2 wire as it has about 5 other things connected to it that I reasoned must be receiving signals from either the alternator, Power Module or both. Maybe I'm wrong & PM 10-2 should not be connected at all. Maybe the PM is sending erroneous signals to those 5 things & causing the alternator to over charge. FYI: The green Field 2 wire was a direct connection to PM 10-8. I cut it off near the PM & made a nice replacement connector for it in case I switch back to a fully functioning Power Module in the future.


QUESTION:
As my alternator is only supposed to put out 120 amps will a 150 amp circuit breaker work?
Fusible links always worry me. As I've gotten familiar with the wiring I'm going to replace all the fusible links with in line fuse holders. On the minimopar.knizefamily.net website they have a handy reference page listing fusible links, their use and amperage. Problem is the Alternator Feed to the battery is a 160 amp 12 gauge link. I checked several after market auto web sites and they don't have 160 amp fuses, they sell circuit breakers. Problem is they jump from 150 to 200 amps, no 160s. As my alternator is only supposed to put out 120 amps will a 150 amp circuit breaker work?

Thanks again, DDBob.
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