Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor? - Page 5 - Turbo Dodge Forums : Turbo Dodge Forum for Turbo Mopars, Shelbys, Dodge Daytona, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Omni and more!
Engine Management, Fuel, Spark, EGTs, and Air/Fuel Ratios This forum includes general electrical, modification, tuning, repair, replacement, identification and restoration of all components mentioned above including SMEC, SBEC, Logic Modules, aftermarket engine management, etc. Nitrous oxide posts go in here. This is the place

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post #61 of 80 Old 01-06-2018, 06:55 AM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Tim,
I am guessing that the thread we have in the FAQ section is incorrect?
It also has no illustrations as to components and wiring.
If we could get this corrected it would save a lot of headaches in the future.
After reading the thread if you want to send me corrections I will correct the info in the thread.
https://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/...regulator.html

Anybody that would like to make a new diagram showing the components and wiring would be greatly appreciated and I will make it a "sticky" in the "electrical" section or if you can find the proper wiring online send me the link and I will add it to the existing thread.

Also Tim,
I remember you stating that a wire needed to be removed from the controller for the external regulator to operate properly, is this correct?

Thank You for any assistance you can provide.

Jan
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post #62 of 80 Old 01-08-2018, 01:53 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

The pain of ignorance continues.
Started today's long process by installing a 10 gauge dedicated ground wire from the external voltage regulator case to the alternator case. Had previously installed one to the batteries negative post. With 2 remote grounds & 3 large sheet metal screw case grounds it's exceptionally well grounded but made no difference, still 15.2 V coming off the alternator. Spent hours going through the shop manuals and come back to the same conclusion; Power Module, 10 pin Cavity 2, is "Switched on voltage" that appears to do nothing for an external VR. All other TD posters have their Power Module's internal VR completely failing where mine still partially worked with an alternator output of about 11.5 V. No clue if the PM only requires switched voltage just for voltage regulation or other output functions require it. All I can think to do is clip the PM 10-2 wire close to the PM completely removing it from the equation. The external VR will still be spliced into the switched voltage line along with a bunch of other downstream stuff.
Solutions are welcome!
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post #63 of 80 Old 01-08-2018, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Tried a new tact tonight before cutting off Power Module 10-2.
The old spare external Voltage Regulator I installed put out 15.2 V. Stopped at the junk yard & bought a used one for $5 & bought a new one on sale for $18. The junk yard VR put out 15.1 V and the new one 15 V. Not a big difference in all 3 so pretty much eliminates a VR problem. Maybe I should get a variable VR.
Any suggestions???
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post #64 of 80 Old 01-09-2018, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Removed the Power Module's 10 pin cavity # 2 wire and car would crank but wouldn't start. Something other than the internal voltage regulator uses that key on voltage. Re-wired back to original using the external VR, started right up and back to 15.1 V off the alternator. Removed the external regulator wire, re-connected PM and back to about 11.5 V output. I don't know what else to do other than get another Power Module. Any ideas?
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post #65 of 80 Old 01-09-2018, 07:03 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

I cannot tell you 100% but you do not remove the power feed, you would remove the field control wire either from the LM Blue Connector Cavity #5 or the PM 10 Pin Connector Cavity #8.
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post #66 of 80 Old 01-09-2018, 09:02 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by charger R/T View Post
take a voltage reading from the one wire on the regulator that is keyed 12v+ to the regulator case see if that voltage is a little lower.
Tim
have you done this and if so what was the reading?
Tim
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post #67 of 80 Old 01-10-2018, 02:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Yep, done that V reading several times. With external voltage regulator the alternator outputs at 15.1 V, switched F1 was 14.8 V. Converting back to the stock Power Module (no external VR) it takes a little time to run the battery down to the alternator's discharge voltage of 11.2 V then switched F1 was 10.8 V.

FYI: Did a full field test with just the Power Module and then again after converting back to the external regulator. On both, after grounding, the voltage climbed quickly to 17 V then I just as quickly removed the ground. It might have climbed higher but I didn't want to risk damaging anything so stopped the test. This test only took maybe 3 seconds to hit 17 V.

I've repeatedly tested (1) Logic Module Red connector Cavity 5 (LMRC5 that goes to Power Module 12 pin Cavity 11, PM 12-11) and (2) alternator Field 2 (PM 10-8, Alternator Field Control). Been instructed that both are supposed to pulse but neither do.
(1) LMRC5 (Connected to PM 12-11) with key off there's 135 mV and with key on or engine running only 165 mV. This is the Voltage regulation signal / Alternator Field Control wire, a dedicated wire between the 2. Previously I confirmed it was a good wire with the meter and it wasn't open or shorting with other wires. Now I'm paranoid and tomorrow with check the connectors on both the LM wire loom and inside the LM. Don't think it's the LM as the back up did the same thing.
(2) Alternator Field 2 is a dedicated wire to PM 10-8 (Alternator Field Control). This is the wire that's cut and replaced by the new external voltage regulator's Field wire.
*From studying the manuals my understanding of the Daytona's voltage regulation is this: The battery temperature is determined by either or both
(1) PM 12-3 Voltage Regulation Sense sending a signal to LMBC20 (that tested at 4.6 V, don't know what it's supposed to be) or
(2) PM 12-6 sending Direct Battery Voltage to LMBC2 & LMBC22 that tested at battery voltage 15.1 V, the LM calculates a temperature / voltage ratio and has LMRC5 send a output pulsed signal to PM 12-11, finally PM 10-8 sends a pulsed signal to Alternator Field 2 that increases or decreases voltage depending on battery temperature. It seems as there are no pulses coming from LMRC5 then PM 10-8 wouldn't send them either. Going further back it seems everything is based on the PM sending that 4.6 V signal to LMBC20. I'm thinking as the battery temperature goes up & down this voltage would also but haven't come across that information. As the PM's voltage regulator didn't completely fail (still puts out about 11.2 V) it could be interfering with PM internal calculations resulting in 15.1 V when the external VR is installed. Didn't think to test PM 12-3 / LMBC20 with the external VR removed, will do that tomorrow.
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post #68 of 80 Old 01-10-2018, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Tested Voltage Regulation Sense PM 12-3 / LMBC20 with the external VR removed & installed, both had virtually the same voltage, 4.16 V & 4.3 V so no help there.
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post #69 of 80 Old 01-10-2018, 08:50 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

I don't have diagrams on this computer to determine where f1 is or any thing else. my concern is the operation of the external regulator. The external regulator controls the voltage by the reading it sees in it. not at the alternator or at the battery.

The regulator set voltage can be measured at the external regulator by doing a voltage reading right at the external regulator between the case and the switched ignition wire as close to the external regulator as possible preferrebly at the regulators plug. if it reads 15.1 that is its set voltage. but it should be lower closer to 14.2. If it is lower there is resitance in the circuit and yhat is why you are getting a higher reading at the alternator and battery. that can be fixed to lower voltage at the battery.
Tim

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post #70 of 80 Old 01-10-2018, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Ran out & tested.
Battery: 14.94 V
VR Switched center post: 14.94 V
VR Field side post: 12 V
Alternator output post: 15.28 V
Alternator Field 1 (Switched): 14.88 V
Alternator Field 2 (PM 10-8): 11.9 V

I ran the test quickly, maybe 3 minutes, so engine wasn't warmed up.
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post #71 of 80 Old 01-11-2018, 08:15 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDBob View Post
VR Switched center post: 14.94 V
if the negitive lead was on the regulator case this is the voltage the regulator is looking to charge at. Not much you can do to lower the voltage at the battery since that number is the same. if you get to a junk yard look for an old mopar regulator one it might help.
Tim
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post #72 of 80 Old 01-11-2018, 08:33 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

I was thinking the same thing Tim. But I thought there might be something wrong with the Alternator because it's putting out 15.28 V, .34 V more than the voltage regulators switched center post of 14.94 V. I had the alternator checked 3 times at different parts stores & they all said it was good.
The VR installed now is from NAPA but still Made in China. I understand that's where they all come from.
If nobody else has any suggestions at this point I'm going to order an adjustable VR.
If the Power Module's internal VR completely fails the voltage should still be enough to run the car. I'm also getting a real voltage gauge to keep an eye on this.
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post #73 of 80 Old 01-13-2018, 07:49 PM
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

do you still have the power modules wiring still hooked up while using the external regulator? I would recommend only one hooked up at a time.

The higher reading at the alternator shows there is resistance in the wiring between the alternator to battery.
Tim
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post #74 of 80 Old 01-13-2018, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Tim,
You've heard of 6 pack problems, this is a kegger problem.

Field 2 on the Alternator is a direct & dedicated wire to Power Module 10-8, that was replaced by the new external VRs Field output. I tested the cable, no shorts and it only had .03 ohm of resistance.
However, the switched voltage, PM 10-2 must stay connected to the the PM or the car won't start. The new external VRs center post "I" must also have switched voltage meaning it & PM 10-2 are connected and I believe this is the problem. But I could be wrong, there are other signals going to and from the Logic Module that aren't what I was told they should be.

Stock, without the new external VR, the PM's internal voltage regulator is allowing less than 12 V meaning the PM's VR is only partially failing. When the new external VR's installed I think there's internal conflict occurring in the PM causing the 15.1 V output.

I got the idea to use a relay to supply direct battery voltage feed (about 12.7 V) into the external VR when the key is turned on. I checked YouTube.com for this solution and found the problems of no charging and the 15.2 V overcharging a common occurrence in Chrysler/Dodge pickups (diesel and normal). I'd hoped the external VR would use the relayed battery 12.7 V as it's sample and ignore the PM. Didn't work! Still put out 15.1 V.

This is such a common problem Ebay has numerous adjustable external voltage regulators for Chrysler/Dodge vehicles. There's also heavy duty adjustable VRs for use with power sucking stereo systems. At this point I'd be glad to pay for a HD adjustable VR if I thought it'd work. But at this point I don't think any adjustable VR would work as long as there is the interference from the Power Module. At least that's my theory.

Supposedly my brother the mechanic will be over tomorrow to take a look at it.

To my knowledge no one has hacked the Power Module. I have an old bad PM and took it apart. A lot of epoxy and jelly to keep inquiring minds out and re-manufactures in business.

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post #75 of 80 Old 01-15-2018, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Running rich. Need a new O2 Sensor?

Well after a lot of work two mechanics agreed they also think it's the Power Module interfering but it could be the Logic Module as they talk to each other about this. Saying they'd not come across this before doesn't make it any better. My engine bay is now a rats nest of wires with jumpers and connectors to try different things.
Any suggestions on a Power Module manufacture. Cardone and BlueStreak are all that seems offered at local parts shops. Here NAPA is Cardone.
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