Power drop at full open throttle!?? - Turbo Dodge Forums : Turbo Dodge Forum for Turbo Mopars, Shelbys, Dodge Daytona, Dodge SRT-4, Chrysler PT Cruiser, Omni and more!

Engine Management, Fuel, Spark, EGTs, and Air/Fuel Ratios This forum includes general electrical, modification, tuning, repair, replacement, identification and restoration of all components mentioned above including SMEC, SBEC, Logic Modules, aftermarket engine management, etc. Nitrous oxide posts go in here. This is the place

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post #1 of 26 Old 05-21-2018, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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Power drop at full open throttle!??

Ok all, need some guidance of a power loss when WOT. First of all, engine setup:
Freshly rebuilt 1988 2.2 turbo CSX-T with only 360 miles on it,
Bored .020 over,
OEM brand new turbo pistons,
Garrett T2 super 60 turbo(Currently set at 8 lbs of boost during break in),
42 lbs mopar fuel injectors, (<-may be my problem right now),
20% larger fuel pump
2 BAR MAP,
Full 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust system using magnaflow products.

I'm keeping my max RPM to no more then 4K during break in.

Situation: When I accelerate at half throttle to 3/4 throttle, the power is there. my average AFR is around 14.2 ratio. ( I am running a AEM wideband properly placed according to the manual.)
But when I go full throttle, the AFR drops of the left scale running highly rich at below 10/1 ratio and I loose the power!!!

I was thinking I am running to large fuel injectors and its just flooding the system? Or do I have a possible TPS problem?

No codes,
starts right up.
It runs around perfect in normal driving maintaining a perfect 14.5 to a 14.8 AFR on the guage.

Any thoughts???

Oh yea, all speed parts bought through FWD. (Great people, willing to help and point in right direction as well. She told me a possible TPS problem)
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post #2 of 26 Old 05-21-2018, 02:59 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

One thing to consider is that when you are just cruising around, the engine computer is paying attentio to the O2 sensor, and the computer is constantly making adjustments to the fuel injector pulse duration trying to keep the mixture correct. But at WOT the engine computer totally ignores the O2 sensor and uses a table to look up the injector pulse duration, and since you have larger than known to the computer fuel injectors (I think) that it then going to run rich which it seems to be. When they run rich they loose power but they also run cooler. Lean means more power but higher cylinder temps, hence the importance of keeping a good fuel mixture at WOT.

I'm with you and feel more than likely you have a fueling issue, and your tune has no idea you have larger (+20%)injectors installed.
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post #3 of 26 Old 05-21-2018, 09:01 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

Stock Cylinder head?
Stock computer?

5psi and blow, you should get around 14.7 air fuel ratio
5psi to 7 psi, you should get 12-13 air fuel ratio
7psi and above, you should get 11-12 air fuel ratio


Regardless of throttle position.
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post #4 of 26 Old 05-22-2018, 08:56 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

Quote:
Originally Posted by tryingbe View Post
Stock Cylinder head?
Stock computer?

5psi and blow, you should get around 14.7 air fuel ratio
5psi to 7 psi, you should get 12-13 air fuel ratio
7psi and above, you should get 11-12 air fuel ratio


Regardless of throttle position.
Yeap and yeap.

Your AFR numbers are spot on. Except for the 7 psi and above. that's where the value drops below 10 afr.

But I do plan on running at lease 12 psi of boost after break in. 14 psi when I get the FMIC installed and plummed.

I put a fuel system together to support at least a possible 250 HP if I can. But I relize I will also need to upgrade the computer to support that.

I do have a 3 bar map sitting in the parts bin. Just need to get the stage 4 ECU to step it up.
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post #5 of 26 Old 05-22-2018, 11:36 AM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

I would suggest making your own tune instead of buying off the shelf vendor's tune.

Software are free, MPtuner and the calibrations files.
MPTuner
Turbonator SMEC codebase

Hardware are socketing your ECU and a moates ostrich emulator which I prefer.
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post #6 of 26 Old 05-22-2018, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

The problem with this, is its all Greek to me. when it comes to software and programs, I am very stupid. The closest I ever dabbled with ECU's was a prior turbo project of mine(completely different vehicle and engine), I did the Split Second PSC1-001 programmable MAP. And I used someone else's tune that was done up.

This sounds kinda intimidating to me. Where would I source the hardware to support the programs you posted? Is this a special ECU I have to purchase or does this actually reprogram the factory ECU?

I am interested, but I see my self siding on the more caution side. Thank you for the info!! Awsome!!
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post #7 of 26 Old 05-22-2018, 05:50 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

Im going to second going the ostrich emulator way and avoiding an off the shelf tune. I bought a stage 5 from FWD, and although it probably works for most customers, I had a lean condition above 6psi, and adjusting my fuel pressure, I still couldn't get it where I thought would be safe at part throttle.
Tuning yourself is intimidating, but there is a huge amount of support to teach you what you need to look for and what you need to get started. Right now, you need to look into a socketed ECU, which is pretty much the stock ECU where someone pulled out a chip and put in a "Socket". This is where your Ostrich will plug in, and then your on your way. You can download boostbutton tunes that will get your car running, and then you will mess with the parameters to get it where you want it. You already have your wide band, so your on your way.

For the Ostrich

'Ostrich 2.0 : The New Breed' [OSTRICH_2] - $175.00 : Moates.Net

You could buy chips, and a chip burner that would allow you to do the same thing, but with an ostrich you dont have to keep pulling chips in and out when you want to modify something. Follow tryingbe's links and take a night and read the wiki. Its laid out very well. You will be able to modify your fuel to fit your exact engine this way, and although a learning curve is involved, it is completely worth it.

Wiki:

http://www.boostbutton.com/turbonator_wiki/doku.php
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post #8 of 26 Old 05-22-2018, 05:51 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

I dicked around with aftermarket tunes for a couple years. No one could get close to what my car needed. After getting a tuneable ECU (either socketed with the Ostrich or flashable) and a wideband an afternoon and 1/4 tank of fuel and she was running perfect.


Course now Tryingbe has me thinking about going with Megasquirt............damn you.
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post #9 of 26 Old 05-22-2018, 06:22 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

I am truly trying to not come off as flippant....but it's just not realistic to expect that in an electronically controlled fuel injected car that you can change to a larger turbo, add higher flowing fuel injectors, put on a larger exhaust and then expect the 25 year old factory "hard coded" computer to still do the air/fuel mixture correctly under all circumstances or to not introduce a quirk or two or some strange drive-ability concern. It's just a fact that most 'newbies' to fuel injection are just not told this and then when they get the wide-band and discover the tune is off, eventually it comes to mind the reality of NEEDING a custom tune.

Like WELL DUH!

We really should have a FAQ or at least add notes to our standard stage I, stage II, stage II build FAQs that if you change anything in the 'system', then the likelihood that you are going to require a custom tune is going to be somewhere between 50-100% depending on how far you go. And as seasoned turbo Dodge Wizards we have a unspoken responsibility to spread the word that one change forces another and modifications upset the system balance and it may need to be re-balanced.

It should just be a given, and frequently broadcast to those thinking about modifying their cars that the factory built a balanced system, they spent hundreds or thousands of hours on the dyno, in endurance testing, millions of dollars and blew up a truck load of engines getting it right, or right enough to make it all the way through the warranty period...and they did it all with some of the most talented and well educated and experienced minds in the automotive industry. But still a lot of it was indeed trial and error. No big deal if you have a pile of engines and cars to play and experiment with. A different matter when the car might be your daily driver or one you need to rely on to not blow up when you are not on the track where blowing the engine is a 'well I guess I pushed it a bit hard' event.

Off the shelf custom tunes included, that most assume a very specific recipe of parts are being used, and if you deviate, then the system is again not well balanced. Not to pick on any body's tune, but if you buy a stage III from vendor X and it says for stock motors with maybe a 2.5" or 3" exhaust, and you then throw in +20 injectors and maybe a ported exhaust manifold or a 52mm throttle body or decide to run a octane booster or meth injection, remove the EGR, or any of the dozen other HP cheats...well then that tune is no good for you. The tune is what it is and it assumes a specific configuration. When you go even higher like to a stage 5, then the requirement for other system changes is also a given (like a AFPR, larger exhaust, +40s, etc.) and again if you don't follow the recipe, it's gonna be off and you'll need a custom tune.

All that being said, if you want it to run right all the time, and you have made mods, then you are setting yourself up for learning more about the fuel injection on your car than you might have initially planned. Once you plug into that community of expertise, do the math and the homework, do your tests, learn how its done, then you are on your way to a good tune and a lot more fun per MPG. It just takes time and effort and expertise as well as the consult of those that have gone before you. Of course it helps to have a budget for rebuilding the engines you are going to blow learning.

Again, not wanting to come off as flippant, or pick on anybody, it's just somethings I felt needed to be said. Mess with the balanced system, perfect or not, and it's not balanced till you work it out again.
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post #10 of 26 Old 05-22-2018, 07:01 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpfrk2001 View Post
The problem with this, is its all Greek to me. when it comes to software and programs, I am very stupid.
Nobody born with the knowledge, everybody had to learn.

The software is free to use, so why not?

It's a lot easier than you think.


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post #11 of 26 Old 05-22-2018, 07:03 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

Quote:
Originally Posted by GLHNSLHT2 View Post
Course now Tryingbe has me thinking about going with Megasquirt............damn you.
You're welcome!?

MS2 is good, MS3 is great. I'd go straight to MS if I have another turbo dodge.
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post #12 of 26 Old 05-23-2018, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

Ok everyone, I will look into this.

1. So all I need is the hardware that links the stock ECU to the computer that's in the link?
Does that replace the PROM chip? and allows the change of programming to the factory ECU? Kinda like a piggyback?

2. Then down load the free program

3. Use a base program from someone close to what I have and go from there...

other option....
Go back to factory injectors and hope that cures problem till more funds come in.(short on cash)

I did put the other coil back in when it was running fine and had a little better improvement. I will find out tomorrow when I drive to work (22 miles one way.)
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post #13 of 26 Old 05-23-2018, 07:34 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

Before you spend a dime, download the program and file and see if you can learn it.
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post #14 of 26 Old 05-26-2018, 12:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

Can someone post up a pic of the correct orientation of the distributor installation for the engine to run correct with correct timing.

I think the shop installed the distributer one of two cogs off?

I have to twist the dizzy full advance to even put the engine in correct timing?

Basically as you look at the dizzy from the top of the motor, it is twisted max counter clockwise. I have a stinking suspicion here.

Oh yea, the previous problem as discussed, has mysteriously cleared up! Crazy.. Yesterday it did a 44 mile round trip no hiccups. So fingers crossed

codes were: 12-ECU Reset in less then 100 miles
52-excessive rich condition on O-2
45-over boost condition
which all 3 conditions did happen at one point within 45 miles of each.
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post #15 of 26 Old 05-26-2018, 12:46 PM
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Re: Power drop at full open throttle!??

you can only install the distributor either at 0 or 180 degrees out. Now you can install the oil pump wrong which drives the distributor which then renders the timing mark on the intermediate shaft worthless. 1st, set all timing marks on the crank, intermediate shaft, cam at zero. Check to make sure slots in the top of the oil pump are parallel with the block. If not you can pull the pan, drop the oil pump and install it correctly. Or you can loosen the belt, rotate the intermediate shaft till oil pump lines up, tighten belt back up. Set crank and cam at Zero using the flywheel mark or TDC with a tool to reference TDC of the #1 cylinder through the spark plug and make sure oil pump slot is parallel. Then you can use the rotation of the distributor to set timing.

I personally like option 1 because I'm slightly OCD and if I ever have to set timing again it's far easier to just line the marks up and go vs. getting out from under the car and checking to make sure everything is lined up.

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