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Why not AWD

42K views 211 replies 71 participants last post by  Ondonti 
#1 ·
Why not AWD ?

Ok i know this topic has been beat to death. But why doesnt it exist?

I know everyone tries to use a TRUE AWD setup.

But if the engien and trans are turned sideways... i see one axle coming out of each side of the transmission.

I call that my front and my rear driveshaft.

Now, you can probably source axle pieces and build something that will work for the front.. and for the rear use an intermediate shaft and get a driveshaft made that will fit into it and into a rear differential.. and...

WHY NOT!?

someone tell me
 
#128 ·
I question the weak awd minivan statement. I know of several minvans awd that are turboed and running in the high 12 sec range at the track. yes 1/4 mile. and they are mostly stock running gear.
the biggest problem I have seen is breaking the cv joints and thus losing the drive to that wheel, and spiting the axle out once. I am sure we could find some stronger axles or go to a half shaft setup like the viper has in it. come to think of it I have a friend with a Jag I bet we could put the correct ends on those babies and make a minvan setup work. Just read about one of them at mopar action. they had one.
 
#129 ·
I have yet to hear of any turbocharged AWD minivan in the 12s... This would be great to see. As for the link above, that is from my site, just so folks know where this came from. Straight out of a 92 Minivan FSM.

I got the info about the weakness from a Chryco trans tech. That and the AWD was very picky about all 4 tires being the same and at the same pressures.

The buggy mentioned is built Rhino Offroad, using modified Ford 9" axles and Honda drivetrains. What is funny, Jeep was going to build a Jeep (see Allpar.com for the JJ) with independent front and rear with a 2.2 drivetrain mounted north south... Based off that idea, I was going to build a buggy using a 2.2 turbo2 myself. But got laid off a job before I could build it. I was going to use a Toyota IFS for the front and a Toy axle in the back, and use a sand rail for a chassis, but modify it to mount the 2.2 up front. Would have made for a decent rockcrawler.
 
#130 ·
I got the info about the weakness from a Chryco trans tech. That and the AWD was very picky about all 4 tires being the same and at the same pressures.
I second that, I heard of a chrysler minivan going through 3 tranny's in a month's time (awd housing kept cracking) the shop was frustrated loosing time & money on a warranty job till they realized the idiot owner of the van had a different size wheel on one of the axels.

Subaru's and most other AWD vehicles have this problem. Their Warranty is VOID if you put new tires on the vehicle in any combination other than 4 (meaning If you blow one tire you MUST buy 4 new tires) because the tread depth difference between a used tire & a new tire is enough to change axel speed and destroy the AWD components.

Part-time and full-time 4X4 vehicles do not have this problem because of the different drivetrain/transfercase setup.

So think twice when you decide between 2WD/4WD and AWD (unless ofcourse you have stock in Goodyear):D
 
#132 ·
It has been disscussed and has been deemed unreliable at high power levels. The stuff is just too weak to hold up to the kinda power we are talking about for traction. I still am waiting to see someone rebuild and beef up the set up and see how it works.
 
#133 ·
the only one i can think of would be the 3000GT 5/6sp AWD transmissions and rear ends. those were factory 320hp drivetrains that people put 600-800+hp through. only catch is it will only work with a 3.0 setup with the engine rotated 180* and other custom fabrication work
 
#136 ·
Unreliable. won't hold up at big power levels, whatever anyone wants to say. So why is it that you can get a turbocharged 2.2 with a stock 5 speed stretch the spring in the fuel presure regulator to lie to the ECM and have higher presure at the injectors and run 13.0 at 100mph all day? and the big 3.8v6 that was in the AWD minivans didn't break anything but engine mounts. are we going simply on hearsay?
Venture over to MoparMuscles website and watch the videos of the stocl 2.2T running 13.0 pass after pass, Look around and I am sure some of you with more time than I have could find the Mopar Mag that did the 12 sec minivan and published it in a article.
Anyone been to Bristol TN lately, Last time I was there a minivan with all the stuff inside ran 12.7 at 115. left the line without even barking a tire. the most amazing thing was the guy drove it there unloaded family, bbq grill, canopy and seats for 6 people signed it up to race and went heads up to everything that would run him.
I have seen the things go. I just dont have a wrecked one around to get the parts from. If I did I would try it out for sure. And can anyone tell me where I can get the Super 60 Package mother mopar had out years ago. Only thing they still have listed is the computer.
 
#138 ·
If you are gonna go through this much trouble just make it RWD and slap a late model mds hemi in it from the junkyard.Seems easier to just make it rwd,plus ya can have more fun:thumb: .
 
#139 ·
Well I'm not really interested in this concept so I haven't read every post,but Caroll Shelby did this as a prototype with 16 valve 2.2 Daytona back in 83-84.Might check it out.i I have the magazine some where, I saw it not too long ago.Might look it up again if anyone's interested.
 
#140 ·
OK now I understand the reliability part. So didn't we have some Talons and Eclipses with AWD that made tons of power?
Think any of it would work?
I am dying to make an AWD 1979 OMNI with a 16v Super 60 Powered motor.
And yes Minivans run 12 sec quarter times.


12.61 @ 105 mph
Paul Smith 1989 Dodge Caravan

12.69 @ 106 mph
Terry Ryan's '89 Turbo mini
Niether of these are AWD but figure the weight/time/speed calculatioins and you get 325 and 340 hp repsectfully. woohoo
My Idea of an 1800 lbs OMNI should go in the 10's. Imagine what that will do to the jerks with the pissed off weedeater mufflers on Hondas making nothing but noise. Man this is going to be fun.
 
#141 ·
And I forogt one thing. I dont have tons of cash but I do work at a machine shop. So fabing some parts wont be that hard for me, just figuring out how to hang it into the car and make it adjustable enough to ne lined up correctly will be the hard part. If I happen to get this done reasonably soon I will make some extra hangers/brackets and such and sell the for cost of materials only. Since you guys are giving me the inspiratoin to do it just because no-one, including me now, thinks it will work very well, if at all. So that said hopefully I will prove me wrong.
 
#143 ·
I have followed this thread with interest over time,as an awd turbo van would be great fun.Last fall I removed,then converted an awd auto to 2wd,and fitted it to a 2wd van.This gave me a good look at how the awd system worked.I was also a bit surprised at how 3 wheels are driven from one end of the diff..
I also looked at it all with view to fitting the system to my turbo van,and I believe it would be achievable.I have just purchased another turbo van for it's rust free shell (and it's factory 5sp),and have plans to try the awd conversion with my hybrid engine fitted.
I'll be interested to see how things survive.
 
#148 ·
Ok, I have read the whole thread, and in many ways I agree with Phatfoto that having 3 out of 4 tires driven off half the output of the tranny is a bit disconcerting.

Under extreme acceleration what would slip at one tire or another do to this situation. Would it kill the PTO? They use overrun clutches in stock situations, is it for perfect operation with no kinks? Or is it a necessary part to keep the PTO from killing the whole system? If all the tires are the same size, and LSD only in the rear, what wouldn't allow enough slip to keep the rest of the drivetrain alive? As long as there is slip from side to side, how much loading would there be of the rest of the drivetrain?

Either way, I am watching this thread!
Chris
 
#151 ·
I am not disagreeing with you, as I have never seen one in person. What I am saying is that the input shaft on all the drawings of the PTU's show a solid input shaft. How does the PTU spline into the differential housing with a solid shaft yet the axle spline into the spider gear with a solid shaft? You can't put a solid THROUGH a solid. Now if the input of the PTU is hollow, and splines on the outside of the housing while the axle splines into the spider gears I can get what you say, but none of the diagrams I have seen or the pictures show a hollow input for the PTU.

Either way I am excited to see if we can adapt a Quaife LSD to the PTU so we can have real AWD for an evil little omni....
Chris.
 
#150 ·
none of you guys have ever driven a awd caravan? do you know you can posi the fwd a604 hummm and if u posi the rear diff in the awd WOW thats killer i got mr.t to posi(respects to mr transmision)(cant spell)my 3.3 fwd a604 and i do killer with it so whats stopping anybody from doing it to a awd???? i cant find one here on ontairo for less than 1000 (that works) if not the owner thinks that he/she has a van made out of gold so i havent been able to make this happen. and if u guys r thinking of playing with awd power think of getting a shelby3.3 and use that for your awd setup 255hp ?????torq and the 3.3 is set up to handle 500hp i ve been porting polishing and building my own version of the 3.3 and doing resurch in building this motor its possible to get 500hp..... im prob going to be blasted for this (never worked with a 4 cyclnder b 4 )but can u get 500 hp but have the torq?
 
#154 ·
Ok, this explains a lot, now the differential has Timken bearings on the outside edge setting the play and such, does the differential extend past where the bearing rides? basically what I am wondering is all the rearends I have built have the differential/shims/bearings, and the differential is flush with the bearing, there is nothing to spline into, unless the differential is different from the ones I have seen, and extends past it and has splines machined into it.

I also wonder if the problems is the metallurgy a problem with PTU's or is it a design flaw? Could cryogenics help keep these units together? I would love to have an AWD omni with 400+hp. Oh, and if the awd diff is different than a LSD, can a LSD be machined to accept the PTU.
Chris
 
#155 ·
back to the original question it could work witha little bit of wild fabrication if you used a 4x4 front axle w/ independent suspention s10 type and awd rear end the axles swaped around at the u joint part if nessesary the only major prob is at the gear ratios of the axles but alot of modifing would go in to it . it makes sense to me and the drive shafts would suck to?
 
#156 ·
From what I understand the AWD diff uses a larger bearing than the standard diff on the passenger's side. The splines for the PTU shaft are internal splines on the ID of the bearing "snout"(for lack of a better term at the moment) and are probably done via EDM. This could be done to any diff as long as it has the meat on the "snout" to do so. You also need the matching bearing retainer cup, or machine out the stock one from the tranny to accept the larger outer bearing race.

As I saidm this information is based on what I've read from other's experiences. I've never held one in my hands, so if something needs to be edited, then somebody with more experience than I please do so!
 
#157 ·
i was just about to post a topic about this...i seen a awd dodge minivan yesterday then i was thinking what about the dsms? the tsi gsx and rs all came awd. the wheelbase on a baron is 103.5 in and the base on dsms is 97.2 in. the second gen caravan se had a wheelbase of 112 in. so would you just have to modify the driveshift? im not sure of the track but i dont think it could be that off.
 
#160 ·
You can bolt a 3L up to the 3S drivetrain, but the biggest problem is you have to do a 180* flip to make it work. Yes, it can fit...but you have to customize pretty much everything; mounts, wiring, rear-end, an endless amount of fabrication. It would be a cool project in the end, but tons of time and $$$.
 
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