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He cant locate the center section as needed for optimum drain angle (assuming all the hoses clear), and then arbitrarily rotate the compressor housing without changing the drain angle? :confused:

I think you actually explained this in your sentence but for some reason I cant compute it.
Ha, ya I might have said that kind of all over the place. (thinking out loud)

The compressor housing just spins on the center section (once you remove the dowel pins) so you can only gain by moving the small section of the snail to the firewall.

The center section and turbine housing have an off-set if memory serves. So when you spin them, you can get the center section to move slightly closer or further from the firewall. Since the oil drain Must be in a certain position, one can only hope that it IS the position furthest away from the firewall.

So, IF that made any sense (lol) "signs" should spin that center section the way it needs to be, before making any more measurements. (it may change things)
 

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btw I am still totally up for drawing up something that could help..its just that at the moment it looks like the clearance issue is so major that it wouldnt really shed any light on anything..but if that changes to a more nuance sort of thing or you get an idea just let me know
 

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Discussion Starter #184
Ha, ya I might have said that kind of all over the place. (thinking out loud)

The compressor housing just spins on the center section (once you remove the dowel pins) so you can only gain by moving the small section of the snail to the firewall.

The center section and turbine housing have an off-set if memory serves. So when you spin them, you can get the center section to move slightly closer or further from the firewall. Since the oil drain Must be in a certain position, one can only hope that it IS the position furthest away from the firewall.

So, IF that made any sense (lol) "signs" should spin that center section the way it needs to be, before making any more measurements. (it may change things)
That's a bit better. lol
Yeah, the CHRA and Compressor can be clocked in any position I choose after removing the alignment pins.
The offset Shadow speaks of is only there for the area the WG port needs.
So, when the CHRA is clocked in any position, the Turbine and Compressor are still dead on center. :thumb:

a little late to the party but 2 & 4 door L body engine compartments are one and the same
I was hoping there may have been a couple inches or so.
But, oh well.
Doc, I think your "shoebox" idea is becoming more and more necessary.
Although I think it'll end up being more of an angled(or even rounded) indent.
Maybe I'll cut an old water type fire extinguisher in half and use that. :brows:


btw I am still totally up for drawing up something that could help..its just that at the moment it looks like the clearance issue is so major that it wouldnt really shed any light on anything..but if that changes to a more nuance sort of thing or you get an idea just let me know
I think you're right Asa.
The drawing would be cool, but I think the only helpful option at this point
is for me to get this Block/Head/Turbo in the engine bay;

Although I do have the K-Frame within reach, hanging on the wall here.
Maybe I bolt one of the 555 cases to it, and bobble strut to get a more clear idea first?
Maybe I just build a new center section of firewall.
I'll choose the area of the factory wall to be deleted, and cut it out.
A centered, sunk in area in the firewall. We're talking about 4-5" here.
I understand that may seem like a lot, but I may be able to compensate for it with the interior parts.
(ie; shorten the heater box, etc.)

I'm going off on a tangent here, but that's what I do to come up with the right solution.
I have to get the Block/Head/ Turbo to the body to see where this turbo aligns with the wall first.
Maybe it's a bit more centered with our "trans hump".
Moving the hump back wouldn't be all that hard really.

I'll keep any progress posted folks.
One thing I am 100% sure of; the solution I come up with will be something thought to be impossible,
and without a doubt, FULLsignsoflife! lol

Thanks for the input, and thanks for the well-wishes my friends.

:D
 

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Discussion Starter #185
6-28-2014
Got out to the body today for some underhood marking.

First; since my "shop" is also my front porch,
I have to cover the HOLSET with a cardboard box at night. lol


So, what I did was, mount the front engine mount to the block,
and inserted a rod to get the height right:


Then measured from its mounting bolts to the ends of the HOLSET:
Looks like about 12"-13"(to be safe) to clear the Turbine & Downpipe:


And, 30"(again, to be safe), to clear the Compressor:


Went out to the body, and marked the area that must sink in a bit:
Turbine & Downpipe side is basically in line with the mounting holes for the A/C equipt heater box;
I'll probably keep the piece I cut out to reuse after sinking it in about 4"-5".
Compressor side is where the A/C equipt Heater core lines used to exit:
(The extra masking tape in the middle is the Turbine clearance without the Downpipe)




After I marked it off completely, it's not all that bad.
I'll be able to include the "trans hump", and also get rid of some of the firewall holes I wouldn't be using.
But at the same time, retain the necessary ones(ie: Steering column, throttle cable, Master Cyl, etc).
And with just moving the piece I cut out, back far enough for the HOLSET to clear,
I'll still have what I need on the piece I reuse. :D

This is a first shot marking for reference only.
By no means is this the final marking.
I did this just to get an idea of what I'd be looking at.

As for the interior; it appears to me that the accessories in the center of the dash & console will have to be relocated,
or at a minimum, moved more toward the inside.
I'll keep the clearances & dimensions I find posted. :D

Another piece of good news is that all of these cuts will end up under the dash mounting in the interior. :D
 

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6-28-2014
Got out to the body today for some underhood marking.
Geez that seems like an awfully big area to deal with...

Too bad the holset cant just be angled down a bit more. Looking at the stock exh man flange it just seems to be making life difficult by pointing the turbo up so high..

What about changing that instead somehow? :shrug:

I.e. changing the exh mani flange angle to point down..maybe you could get enough clearance to not need to do any firewall mods!
 

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to try out the idea of rotating the turbo, I did some cut and paste fun using microsoft photo editor

basically cut the turbo out, rotated it 40 degrees, then pasted it back in roughly with the flanges in the same "place", although rotated

looks like you could save a few inches perhaps

Im not taking into account what else might need to be considered by doing this of course..like if there is even room to drop the turbo like that or if hoses or brackets or whatever might not fit anymore..

in the pic it looks like maybe 3" clearance is gained..maybe if you add whatever clearance you get from rotating the snail/center housing/compressor, you could get up to 4" or 5" from where you are now, and no more problem!

 

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Discussion Starter #188
Geez that seems like an awfully big area to deal with...

Too bad the holset cant just be angled down a bit more. Looking at the stock exh man flange it just seems to be making life difficult by pointing the turbo up so high..

What about changing that instead somehow? :shrug:

I.e. changing the exh mani flange angle to point down..maybe you could get enough clearance to not need to do any firewall mods!
to try out the idea of rotating the turbo, I did some cut and paste fun using microsoft photo editor

basically cut the turbo out, rotated it 40 degrees, then pasted it back in roughly with the flanges in the same "place", although rotated

looks like you could save a few inches perhaps

Im not taking into account what else might need to be considered by doing this of course..like if there is even room to drop the turbo like that or if hoses or brackets or whatever might not fit anymore..

in the pic it looks like maybe 3" clearance is gained..maybe if you add whatever clearance you get from rotating the snail/center housing/compressor, you could get up to 4" or 5" from where you are now, and no more problem!
The issue I guess that would arise if I were to figure a way to angle the turbo down,
is that it would then probably hit the starter or the intermediate shaft.
At this point, I'm not sure. I'll surely play around with it once I have the engine mocked in the bay.
The 351 I'm using is actually from a Dodge RAM 2500-3500 diesel,
and how it's installed in the "L" body is actually reversed from how it's in the RAM.
Where the "bottom" of the Turbine is actaully the top in my set-up:
Here's how it mounts in the RAM:

As you can see, it's flipped upside-down for my set-up, so the Compressor is on the left rather than the right.
This raises the turbo considerably, in addition to the header flange angle.

But, if there's a way to angle it down to gain a few inches, I'll find it.
If that be the case, I may have a "wedge" built and welded to the header flange.
I could design this "wedge" to not only move the turbo down, but maybe also angle it slightly, pushing the Compressor housing more toward the front.
So then when the turbo is mounted to the header, it would sit at an agle as opposed to the engine. :shrug:
Drill new turbo mounting holes, get new studs, and off to the races! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #190
Before you start chopping anything up, are you sure the inlet for the turbo is going to clear the brake booster?
Absolutely, I'll go through all of those checks.
But, it'll clear.
The taped off section that the turbo occupies is the inside of the tape.
And, the outermost area is the snail of the 351(The exit of the Compressor side),
which is out a lot further than that line at the firewall.

I had this consern as wel Rob.
I was like, "SON-OF-A... I'll have no brakes!!!";
then after I realized the outermost area doesn't even really
need to be sunk in because the snail is like 5"-6" further out.

This is still a bit of speculation on my part.
In that I have yet to get the engine mocked into the bay yet. Crossing my fingers. lol :fingersx:

And once again, it'll make for some custom plumbing the likes of which have yet to be seen. :brows:
 

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Discussion Starter #191
I've been looking at other "L" body builds using a header similar to mine,
and it would appear to me that most of their headers have the pipe angled down right out of the head,
and not as far reaching(long) as mine are.

Maybe a trip to the bandsaw is in order for my header with some new welds.
The cutting will pull the turbo closer, as well as the new angle from the head.


(^ Just kinda positioned the starter as close as I could for some kind of reference ^)

Looks to me that my primary tubes can be shortened, as well as angled downward more, no? :shrug:
Getting it figured out is not even a question. It'll happen.
At this point, I can speculate til' I'm blue in the head(and face, lol).
I just have to get moving!

Any moves I make will surely be documented. :thumb:
 

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Maybe a trip to the bandsaw is in order for my header with some new welds.
I think this may be the direction to investigate before the firewall gets involved.

If I may give some advice, it pays to mockup as much as you can on the engine stand for doing custom exhaust work exactly like this. I think you are more skilled at fabricating than me (perhaps not at CNC muhahah), but I would still recommend considering using wimpier tools to come up slow on the required angle, like die grinders and hand saw. If I took a header to a bandsaw it wouldn't be very precise, but thats me.

Also, if you decide to start touching things, you should really mock up all hoses, brackets, everything, so you only do this once. And whatever strut you will be using to support the turbo against the block.

When I was making a tubular header a couple years ago I made a jig to hold the starter in place for fitment testing on the engine stand. I would highly recommend making one.
 

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I measured the exhaust manifold and located the flanges accurately in SW.

If you can tell me a few basic pieces of info I can locate a simplified model of your holset in space and then play with the exh. man. flange location and angle to see what it would take to get it to clear the firewall.

I needed to make this model anyway so if you don't want to do it its no problem at all! Just thought I would offer! :thumb:

Basically if we can assume the holeset is a circle then we need its diameter, and also the location of its center relative to at least two points.

The two points can be anything I already have drawn up, like any of the bolt holes in the head or the edge of the head, etc..

But the measurements need to be in 2 dimensions only, i.e. no angling left or right.

A tape measure would probably be enough if you can get clear readings.

If we assume the compressor housing is the furthest out, then maybe you can use the shaft center as the axis.

I'm not sure how we can accurately model the housing OD if its a snail and not a circle..hmmmmmmm....I can make an arc that continuously gets smaller..or perhaps some other way

But if you can tell me the shaft center relative to a few points then we can figure out how to draw a meaningful compressor housing after that.

The red lines in the last pic are just examples of measurements that could be made...flange holes, head bolt holes, edges of head, etc...







 

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wait I know how we can model the compressor....

if we assume that you will rotate the compressor a certain way regardless of how the manifold is modified, then we just need to know its furthest point from its center perpendicular to the firewall because thats where it will be closest.

if you can take 2 or three more points from its center at say 45 degrees from the perpendicular point, that would probably cover us for making sure that as its snail gets bigger it doesnt run into the firewall above or below the perpendicular point!
 

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Discussion Starter #195
wait I know how we can model the compressor....


if you can take 2 or three more points from its center at say 45 degrees from the perpendicular point, that would probably cover us for making sure that as its snail gets bigger it doesnt run into the firewall above or below the perpendicular point!
AAAARRRRGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Of course, wouldn't ya know it;
I already disassembled the whole mock-up engine.
Took the turbo off; the header off; even removed the head from the block.

I'm preparing to get the engine bay mocked-up.
So first, I now have to build the 1987/1989 K-Frame.
This is basically the 1987 K-Frame, but with the dual pivot control arms fabricated into it.

At this point, everything stops dead until I have the K-Frame built and installed.
This way I'll have some real measurements, and the speculation can cease. lol

BTW: Asa, I ab-SOL-utely LOVE the idea of measuring the center of the turbo to various points of the engine.
I can use this to see a few different positions,
and choose prior to any mods to the Header or Turbine housing. :thumb:

Once I have the Frame built, I'll get those measurements for you.
This way, between us we can figure the optimal placement of this turbo for my application.
Thanks man! :D
 

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AAAARRRRGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Of course, wouldn't ya know it;
I already disassembled the whole mock-up engine.
Took the turbo off; the header off; even removed the head from the block.

I'm preparing to get the engine bay mocked-up.
So first, I now have to build the 1987/1989 K-Frame.
This is basically the 1987 K-Frame, but with the dual pivot control arms fabricated into it.

At this point, everything stops dead until I have the K-Frame built and installed.
This way I'll have some real measurements, and the speculation can cease. lol

BTW: Asa, I ab-SOL-utely LOVE the idea of measuring the center of the turbo to various points of the engine.
I can use this to see a few different positions,
and choose prior to any mods to the Header or Turbine housing. :thumb:

Once I have the Frame built, I'll get those measurements for you.
This way, between us we can figure the optimal placement of this turbo for my application.
Thanks man! :D
actually I think you can get me the measurements using just the turbo..

if you can measure the shaft to two points on the flange that would work...i know the flange isnt the chrysler style but if you can approximate to where the bolt holes would be on the chrysler style

or can you bolt the turbo to your header on a head? those three things would be enough..

hey how did you bolt your turbo to your header anyway? did you modify the flange already?
 

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Discussion Starter #197
hey how did you bolt your turbo to your header anyway? did you modify the flange already?
I began modifying it just enough to mock things up(it'll be detailed here eventually. lol)

actually I think you can get me the measurements using just the turbo..

if you can measure the shaft to two points on the flange that would work...i know the flange isnt the chrysler style but if you can approximate to where the bolt holes would be on the chrysler style

or can you bolt the turbo to your header on a head? those three things would be enough..
Assembled the Head/Header/Turbo for measurements today.
My bench looked like this for a while:


Ran a long bolt down the center of the HOLSET,
and had centered it to get proper measurements.
(surely they're within +/- .25")
The long bolt at the bottom is threaded into the head itself for a reference point.
(I measured things from the center of this bolt; hence, center of the hole)

So from the center point of the bolt in the head,
to the center of the Compressor housing, it's 14.75"




The Turbine outlet is square with the Head,
and measures back to 5.125" from the front surface of the head(4th cyl CCA side).




The overall depth of the turbo,
from the Intake/Exhaust Manifold mounting surface,
mounted to the head, with the header,
is, say 12" to be safe.
(This is not including the WG can mounting or the snail; Both will not be an issue.
The snail is clocked outward, and the mount will be relocated)



Overall width of the turbo is 9"
(This is to the Turbine outlet, no Downpipe or elbow.
And to the Compressor inlet, as the snail will be clocked clear)



Using one of the WG can mounting holes as the outermost point of the compressor(inside of the bolt),
from the center of the Compressor Housing to the outermost point is, say 4.25".
(I know the measurement doesn't appear to be taken accurately, but my phone camera skews images a bit)


Took a couple measurements prior to mounting the turbo on the header as well.
The flange will be square to the head, and nearly flush with the outside edge of the head; .25" or less difference.
(This is referring to the black markings to be cut to a T3 flange on the header)


And 3.25" from the Intake/Exhaust manifold mounting surface to the Flange.


Hope these measurements are enough for you to work with Asa.
If you need more, let me know.
I thank you kindly, in advance, for your efforts.

NOTE: In a hap-hazard fashion, I "kinda" mocked-up the starter, and turbo with header to the block.
From what I saw there, there's quite a bit of room to angle the entire turbo down considerably.

Thanks again! :D
 

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Discussion Starter #198
In the previous post, i used my 287 head to achieve proper measurements.
It's the head I'll be using for the build.
As you can see, there's TONS of work to do to it. lol





For a comparison of sorts,
here's the Head port with the Header port below it:


:ninja:
 

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Assembled the Head/Header/Turbo for measurements today.
My bench looked like this for a while:
Ooh juicy!

Okay I have some questions.

I assumed "snail" meant the entire compressor housing. Does it mean something else? When you say the snail will not be a fitment issue I am confused because it is the largest object and will hit the firewall before anything else isnt it?

If the goal of this modelling in SW is to see how you would have to manipulate the exh man flange in order to tilt the turbo enough for it to clear, then we need the measurement of the current depth of the compressor housing as you will have it rotated once everything is said and done.

Logically it would seem that you would probably rotate it so its dimension from center to the firewall is at its minimum for maximum clearance. However, I am not sure if that puts the inlet opening at some crazy angle which wont work for your plumbing setup.

Have you decided how you want it rotated in the end? If so, can you rotate it to that position, and then take a couple measurements (as described below).

Also, to clarify, once the exh. man. flange gets cut off and re angled or whatever (assuming that ends up being what you do), then the idea would be that you would rotate the compressor housing again to match your desired position, since it will have lost that position when the exh-man modification tilts it further. Thats the assumption I'd be making in the model.

I think we need two measurements, and I think you can physically do both with the head assembled as you showed.

Measurement 1) shaft axis to CORNER of where valve cover gasket surface meets manifold gasket surface. You can eyeball the shaft side of it since you cant actually measure to the center of shaft..that should be good to 1/4" or better, as you said.

Measurement 2) shaft axis to intake manifold bolt holes on head. This is a little trickier but I think is doable. Since we cant really measure to the center of the holes very easily, do this: install two bolts/studs in those holes (#4 set). Then, lay something flat on top of both, like a yard stick or flat piece of metal. Now that creates a straight line that is almost the center of both holes, its just offset by 1/2 the diameter of the bolts. I'll do the subtraction in SW, so you just need to measure from the bottom _front_ edge of that straight object, to the shaft axis. Measure from the bottom _front_ edge of the straight object, to the shaft axis, eyeballing the center of the shaft axis again. Dont eyeball the intake bolt side to the center, just measure to the bottom of your straight object as described. Ill do the subtraction in SW.

For both measurements, if you can somehow use a bolt in the holset shaft axis that has no head and is short enough (or pushed in enough) so that you can lay the tape/yardstick outside it and actually get really close to the true shaft axis, that would be best.

Measurement #3 We also need one more measurement, and thats the shaft axis to the point on the compressor housing nearest the firewall. This is tricky since you dont have the whole shebang in the engine bay, so no firewall to measure to. Since the distance from the shaft to the outside of the compressor housing changes depending on location since the housing is not circular, we need a reference of some kind for the measurement to mean anything. So you could try and measure along the heads head-gasket surface..this might be tricky or very easy depending on what straight objects you have laying around. You need something long enough to contact most of the head gasket surface and also extend out to just past the compressor housing. You need to make sure it is parallel to the sides of the head. Then you need to _perpendicularly_ project the shaft axis center and the compressor housing outermost firewall point onto it, and measure the distance between those two points. You could do the perpendicular part using your triangle perhaps....but you need everything to be steady and square so this might be tricky. You could try getting it setup as best you can then eyeballing it.

Heres a pic showing the imagined measurements. The dotted lines represent various imaginary planes of the head and the red lines are the measurements.

Also, we need to know the exhaust mani flange location and angle, but I think you've told me enough to derive that. So we should be good there.

BTW if you dont feel like doing any of this I totally understand haha! If you want to forget about it for now or forever its alllll gooooddd


 

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there is a small inconsistency in the way I described measurement #3 versus the picture, and im doing this in a separate post to make a special point about it.

in the picture, the red line stops at the blue compressor housing outline. you cant really tell that well because theres not much curvature between them. but it does.

thats technically not "projected" as I described, thats intersecting it.

"projected" would be if you took your triangle and laid it on the imaginary head gasket dotted line, to the right of the compressor, and pushed it left until it hit the compressor housing, and then projected that point straight down onto the dotted line.

in the picture it looks like there wouldnt be much difference between those two methods, but it could be a huge difference depending on where the housing really is, so I just need to know which way you do it.

that is all
 
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