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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
ets sell our rejects as an upgrade to the performance crowd.
Did they do that with the injectors too?

(Snap-On MT2500)
That will read a SMEC in real time? Wish I could afford one of those, make life a bit easier.

The issue was an "ash" fouled spark plug in #2 cylinder (been a problem for awhile, I usually just replace it every 6 month's.). See top row, 3rd pic to the right.
I put new Champions in when got home with new cap/rotor/wires. Took a look at the plugs after about 10 miles, and were white on the electrode, not a light brown.

low octane fuel
Learned early in my teenage years about fuels, octane, and how they affect performance. The octane is just a rating of the resistance to detonation/preignition. Also the higher octane burn slower and longer. Not great for everyday cars, but needed for anything performance oriented. My father ran a '71 Duster with Keith Black 500ci Mopar. It could dip into the 9's but with Pro Stock class, it is about consistency, and usually ran 10.50's. Of course he had a few barrels of fuel around and we had a local that had a early '70's Monte Carlo, cannot remember weather he had a SB or BB.
He built it with stock iron heads, no porting, but over the top compression for a street car. He was always bugging my dad for fuel, and also always upset his car ran like shit most of the time. Father tried explaining to him his setup is jacked and should start over, could not get it into his head that moving air makes more power, not high compression / race gas. Not enough gearheads understand higher octane does not give you more power, but just enough octane to stop detonation/preignition.
 

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Yeah they were replacement "performance" springs for the 2.2/2.5. In reality they were half a set of springs for the small block LA Mopar engines.
That is like the MP engine mounts. They were rejects from the production pieces because the durometer hardness in the isolator was too high. Marketing... got to love it, lets sell our rejects as an upgrade to the performance crowd.
804 Performance injectors were also reject injectors that flowed too much...
 

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Did they do that with the injectors too?



That will read a SMEC in real time? Wish I could afford one of those, make life a bit easier.



I put new Champions in when got home with new cap/rotor/wires. Took a look at the plugs after about 10 miles, and were white on the electrode, not a light brown.



Learned early in my teenage years about fuels, octane, and how they affect performance. The octane is just a rating of the resistance to detonation/preignition. Also the higher octane burn slower and longer. Not great for everyday cars, but needed for anything performance oriented. My father ran a '71 Duster with Keith Black 500ci Mopar. It could dip into the 9's but with Pro Stock class, it is about consistency, and usually ran 10.50's. Of course he had a few barrels of fuel around and we had a local that had a early '70's Monte Carlo, cannot remember weather he had a SB or BB.
He built it with stock iron heads, no porting, but over the top compression for a street car. He was always bugging my dad for fuel, and also always upset his car ran like shit most of the time. Father tried explaining to him his setup is jacked and should start over, could not get it into his head that moving air makes more power, not high compression / race gas. Not enough gearheads understand higher octane does not give you more power, but just enough octane to stop detonation/preignition.
Are u getting boost? White plugs mean lean/not enough fuel too much heat...
 

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Oh yea, watch video it bounces from 7-10.
Check the fuel pressure I told another guy on here it was probably the fuel and after a while he finally found out it was a loose connection or something but it was the fuel pump...

Same 2.5T1 same issue...

 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
  • Ignition timing - tested and verified at 12 degrees with timing light
  • Fuel pressure - 50lbs idle, 55 when revved up
  • Cam timing - verified at 0 on crank mark and cam sprocket at hole
  • Installed new cap/rotor/wires/plugs - plugs gapped at .40
  • Vacuum - 14-15 at idle
  • Fresh motor oil / fresh air filter
  • All intake duct/tubing is free from any debris/clogs
  • Checked air intake duct after turbo, no deposits of carbon/oil, assume seals are good on the turbo
  • Coolant was just flushed, nothing abnormal with coolant, no pressure in the system from cylinders
  • Compression test yielded 100-110 on all 4 cylinders
  • Cat in not clogged / verified by taking apart exhaust
  • PCV valve properly works
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
I deadheaded the pump and went instantly to 85 psi. I think he found bad crimp on the pump? I wish my FP hose was longer to tape it to the windshield. No way long enough to read going down the road. Would putting it on jack stands and loading it while someone reads the gage work?
 

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I deadheaded the pump and went instantly to 85 psi. I think he found bad crimp on the pump? I wish my FP hose was longer to tape it to the windshield. No way long enough to read going down the road. Would putting it on jack stands and loading it while someone reads the gage work?
You could try that but you said the problem is really only on the highway an easy solution might be to just take the hood off use a coat hangar to prop up the fuel pressure gauge and watch it while you're driving.
 

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You cannot read live data on any OBD1 vehicles, the baud rate between a scanner and our controllers is 1.25 seconds.
You can rent a fuel pressure gauge with a longer hose at AutoZone.
You leave a deposit and it is all returned to you when you return the tool.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
So I found time this morning to test fuel pressures while driving and under boost. Under boost it rose from 53 at idle to 65-67 while under boost and while it is surging it stays at a steady 67. So we know it is not a fuel delivery issue.
 

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So I found time this morning to test fuel pressures while driving and under boost. Under boost it rose from 53 at idle to 65-67 while under boost and while it is surging it stays at a steady 67. So we know it is not a fuel delivery issue.
Now try it with a noid light and see if the injectors are cutting out. And hook up a spark tester to see if spark is cutting out...
 

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You still need to...
1)Verify Cam Timing is correct.
2)See if Map Voltage and Pressure are correct when the issue occurs.
3)See knock retard and total spark advance.
4)Check for exhaust restrictions or Air Intake Restrictions.

When I was at Jeep we had a customer that had purchased a used Cherokee.
His issue was that 45 MPH he lost all power and the vehicle would not go any faster.
The issue turned out to be that he placed a qt of oil underwood about 3" from the snorkel on the air cleaner box
The oil jug was being pulled right to the snorkel from engine vacuum and suffocating the engine, it also caused the hard plastic airbox to collapse from the vacuum and the snorkel being restricted.

You have to look at all charge piping to be sure you do not have a hose/tube collapsing at that speed where the issue occurs or any other possible restrictions.
 

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You still need to...
1)Verify Cam Timing is correct.
2)See if Map Voltage and Pressure are correct when the issue occurs.
3)See knock retard and total spark advance.
4)Check for exhaust restrictions or Air Intake Restrictions.

When I was at Jeep we had a customer that had purchased a used Cherokee.
His issue was that 45 MPH he lost all power and the vehicle would not go any faster.
The issue turned out to be that he placed a qt of oil underwood about 3" from the snorkel on the air cleaner box
The oil jug was being pulled right to the snorkel from engine vacuum and suffocating the engine, it also caused the hard plastic airbox to collapse from the vacuum and the snorkel being restricted.

You have to look at all charge piping to be sure you do not have a hose/tube collapsing at that speed where the issue occurs or any other possible restrictions.
He said he checked cam timing 3 times.

I just saw this vid about a engine with rubber O-rings instead of piston rings it has great compression and no blowby but, without oil control rings the cylinders flooded with oil so it cuts out at high rpm. Maybe he should check for oil fouled plugs and oil in the cylinders...
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Now try it with a noid light and see if the injectors are cutting out. And hook up a spark tester to see if spark is cutting out...
Please elaborate on how to do this. At idle? Under power? Do I get a noid rest kit from HF? Spark tester?

Cam timing - Verified 3 times!

Air/Exhaust restrictions - NONE! Verified! Took apart intake system 3 times! See previous posts! Cat is gone.

MAP - Verified! Hooked up boost/vac gage on both side of baro solenoid, readings same and verified voltage. See previous.

Spark plugs - no carbon fouling from old plugs, we're brown/white, just electrode was very worn/rounded. Installed Champion 12 copper plugs. Pulled, have light brown/white on all.

Rotor/cap/wires are new by me. Standard cap and rotor.

Wish I could check knock/etc but do not have access to those diagnostics equipment nor can I afford to buy a used on eBay at this time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
NAJ, sorry about previous, just getting a bit frustrated with this.

So I was in HF when I wrote previous, deciding to get their Noid light set. Bought the Noid set.

I had the van and driving back home, and I have the Vac/Boost gage just hanging in the interior. I thought F-%$ it, lets see what happens when I unplug the hose from the back of boost gage and just let it vent. I pulled hose off, slowed down, let it get into 1st gear and stepped on it. It revved out to 5500 and shifted into second WOT. Repeated this three times, revved out and shifted. Plugged gage back in, WOT it surged and would not shift.

The boost gage is spliced in right before the Baro solenoid. I have moved the gage after solenoid, and eliminated it, it surges and will not shift. Why is it if I vent it, it will rev out and shift? I checked voltages, and back probed it. Maybe I need to check voltage at full boost to verify MAP?
 

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NAJ, sorry about previous, just getting a bit frustrated with this.

So I was in HF when I wrote previous, deciding to get their Noid light set. Bought the Noid set.

I had the van and driving back home, and I have the Vac/Boost gage just hanging in the interior. I thought F-%$ it, lets see what happens when I unplug the hose from the back of boost gage and just let it vent. I pulled hose off, slowed down, let it get into 1st gear and stepped on it. It revved out to 5500 and shifted into second WOT. Repeated this three times, revved out and shifted. Plugged gage back in, WOT it surged and would not shift.

The boost gage is spliced in right before the Baro solenoid. I have moved the gage after solenoid, and eliminated it, it surges and will not shift. Why is it if I vent it, it will rev out and shift? I checked voltages, and back probed it. Maybe I need to check voltage at full boost to verify MAP?
Never splice anything into the vacuum hose for the baro or map sensor always have a direct line to the intake manifold.

You can hook up a multimeter to the map sensor output and check it while you're driving but at WOT the computer actually ignores the map sensor and goes off a predetermined table...

Since your problem is at high RPM you want to be able to check the noid light and spark tester when it's acting up to see if either is cutting out.

Also check the cylinders for any oil. watching that Russian video they had oil on the pistons and it was cutting out the spark but the plugs were cleaning themselves off when you idle it down...
 

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The only thing the factory had tee'd into the Map line from the manifold is the FPR, the boost gauge had its own dedicated line.
If vacuum/pressure is not bleeding off from the MAP sensor on decel then fuel and advance curves will be incorrect.
Instructions for checking MAP sensor calibration was posted in post #2.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Never splice anything into the vacuum hose for the baro or map sensor always have a direct line to the intake manifold.
I understand, thanks for clarification. As stated before, it did not matter where I had it spliced in, or eliminated it all together, the engine operated is same manner. Tested this theory multiple times and had same result.

Instructions for checking MAP sensor calibration was posted in post #2.
Again - verified MAP calibration post #5



Just for fun I went out and switched the vac/boost gage splice right before PCV valve, so it is directly feed from intake. There is nothing spliced in baro or MAP.

Went for a drive, same result - surging and will not rev out.

WHY is it when I vent the line to MAP hose (to open air) it runs like it is should, rev and shift at WOT?

Venting the MAP should prove it is NOT a spark or fuel injector issue?
 

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Are your vacuum pneumatics the factory lines or someone's attempt at duplicating them? Any chance there is a check valve or splice with restrictor inadvertently spliced in the line? I've actually seen the 4 way splitter become clogged with debris. The factory never had vacuum lines run on floor of plenum exactly for this reason; to keep debris out. On the masi 16V intakes, they actually had to run vacuum barbs off the bottom of the plenum for packaging reasons. Their solution was to run tubes inside the fittings to extend out of the floor.
Keep at it, you're making progress!
 
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