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Discussion Starter #1
OK, I've mucked around enough that this might make for some interesting and enlightening discussion.

What we've got here is a GLH-T body with 87 Daytona Turbo Z electronics, trans, and brakes. Its got a 2.5L forged & ported & c. engine that's been in it for 6 months. The car is more ignored mechanically than it deserves. Most notably of the poor care it gets is the fact that the electronics didn't seem to be able to read the O2 sensor and I just disconnected the O2 sensor and it ran OK-ish so I just have persisted that way with the murky justification that I'll wire in the wideband sensor I've got (which has a narrow band output) "when the weather gets warm". As compensation for this lame mode I've connected the waste gate to manifold and I get very little boost. The car just sees daily driving use though occasionally freeway speeds do get up there a bit.

Yesterday it ran well then I parked it for 5 hours and when I went to return home in the evening it seemed to start well until at ~30 mph I noticed that it was running not on all cylinders but maybe 2 or 3. Going with my old 1970s snowmobile mentality I didn't want to "shut it off on the trail" so I kept going but stayed on slower roads rather than freeways for the 40 miles to get home.

The first thing I did was put a timing light on all wires and they all seemed to be pulsing steadily. Diagnosing today with the OTC 4000E scanner that I really don't know how to use the only code that was relevant was 43 Ignition control circuit (all: 12, 33, 36, 43, 55). Looking into that I found the ignition condenser wire to be 99% broken off so I replaced it. But no improvement. I used the actuator test mode to fire the ignition and got evenly paced zaps that I figured to be as intended. Replaced power module, replaced HEP, no improvement. Pulled spark plugs - very black, but 2 and maybe 3 are less black and more wet and 1 and 4 are definitely sooty. I can see liquid in cyl. #2 looking back at me. New plugs were run for a few seconds and don't fix the problem and seem headed toward getting sooty / wet. Fuel pressure checks perfect. In one of my sessions with the scanner I saw fuel injectors at 24 ms. Off the top of my head that seems too long for idling at 1000 rpm, is it? Compression check: 1: 115 psi, 2: 0 psi the first time, then 80 psi on re-check. 3: 115 psi 4: 115 psi. So I've got too much fuel going in overall (which may relate to having no O2 sensor but its not been much of a problem for months till last night) and in cylinder #2 I've got pooled fuel and low compression.

Oh, missed a few things - On the scanner I'm seeing some really goofy numbers. From memory here are a few: MAP pressure / voltage jumping around (wiggling the wires doesn't affect it and connecting it to a brake bleeder vacuum pump affects it but doesn't stop the jumping around), coolant temp is -17C, intake air temp is 130C Battery voltage was sometimes 0V. As I said in the beginning, the O2 sensor isn't connected but there are no codes for it (huh?) (I don't recall what the direct reading was but the "Lean" light was on on the scanner so its likely that the LM wants to add at least some fuel).

Q: Could the low compression in #2 be simply a temporary problem due to the fuel having washed away the more viscous oil so the rings temporarily leak?
Q: Could the low compression in #2 be a permanent problem caused by my driving it 40 miles while excess fuel washed away the oil and allowed the rings to rub?

Q: Any thoughts on what next to investigate?
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Oh and I should add that when I was driving it last night the performance wasn't constant, it was if there was a quickly intermittent electronic problem that switched cylinder function on and off on a multiple times per second basis, definitely not a constant flow of power, it was twitchy. Which lead me at least initially to think that it was an electronic problem rather than say, excess fuel and fouling.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hmm, what does an intermittently stuck valve look like? I just re-ran compression on #2 and again got 0 psi. It was surprising to see that on the gauge because when I cranked it 10 cycles the hose pulsed as if it was seeing pressure and it seemed as if the starter was seeing a hard spot as it went around.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I just saw a most freaky thing and despite seeing it I need someone to tell me what just happened. Intake roller rocker #2 is just sitting off to the side taking a break, nowhere near being in contact with the valve or lifter or cam. And there are no marks, scrapes, scars on anything. The only thing I can think of is that the valve stuck down (or maybe is still down I'll have to check) and when the cam lobe rotated away there was clearance for it to fall out. But so many questions. How can this happen with a 4000 mile old pro built engine that I just 10 days ago changed oil and filter on (Mobil 1 15W50 as directed by the engine builder)? How could it seem to be intermittently changing in power when that cylinder was fully non-functional? How can fuel be pooled in it if the intake valve is closed (unless its pooling above the valve and dripping past the valve)? How was it able to get to 80 psi on compression check one time that I checked it (oh answer - cylinder was at BDC on compression stroke when I put the gauge on). And most importantly, what do I need to do to fix it? Freaky mannn.
 

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If you had new guides installed during your engine build, the machine shop may have not given them enough clearance. Might also have had valve bent during disassembly of valvetrain. This should have been caught when resurfacing the valves. Could have buggered up a guide's ID during install. Valve locks like to stick/lock in valve guide grooves, and there is a method to get them to release, so they can be disassembled without damage. Followers can also kick off by seeing valve float (weak springs or over-revving), or by having the lash adjusters oil galley boss being cracked. This can happen when head, deck, or both gets warped. This usually happens to the #3 cylinder, but certainly could happen to the #2 cylinder. Running very low on oil could cause oil pump to be pumping oil and air into oil galley. Lots of different scenarios for the follower to kick off. Sorry to say, your really not going to know until you remove head for inspection.
IMO, you really need to get your 02 sensor functioning. Really no excuse for this. Pretty important sensor. You claim your running a 2.5 using 87 electronics. The 2.5 needs around 17% more fuel than the 2.2. So hows that gonna work and especially without a 02 sensor that can tell the LM to add is subtract fuel? Your playin with fire, and it looks like you got burned.
If I had built your engine, and you told me you had a non functional 02 sensor running more than likely the wrong calibration, I would tell you your SOL. This could be engine installer error, or it could be engine assembler error, or a combo of the two.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The valves weren't reconditioned but new, +1mm, so that eliminates one possibility. Definitely not over-revved or run low on oil, the oil has been done per instructions and done well (unlike, say, the O2 fiasco). I'm not sure of the history of the base engine before rebuild as I didn't provide a core for rebuilding, he procured it.

As you state 2.5 needs 17% more fuel and I'm playing with fire and have been for months and I'm a bad apple but in my defense (defense is not the correct word because its indefensible) I've had the boost turned down to nil to reduce the size of the fire I'm playing with.

And speaking of fuel ratios, I was thinking overnight that with one cylinder not inhaling as I limped home combined with a speed density system the three remaining cylinders would have been sent 4/3 as much fuel as whatever they had been fed previously, thus the soot on the plugs.

Since I put this engine in its always had a miss when cold. I get "jif"......"jif".........."jif jif".... at ~3 second intervals for about a minute after its started, particularly in cold weather. I've dealt with it by (most of the time) idling for a minute before driving when I start from cold. I'd rationalized it as something to do with the ECM map not being right in cold conditions and / or / combined with the O2 sensor / mixture problem or an ignition problem and I'd thought that the sound I was hearing was due to the engine jumping a bit on its mounts and shaking something. But now it seems apparent that a momentarily sticking valve (or two or??) has been the source of both the sound and the miss and has been present since I put the engine in. The time that this happened I did very little idling before I pulled away then stopped (noticed a weed that needed to be pulled) and restarted and drove off, noticing the problem within the first 300 feet of being on the road.
 

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Slow down, take a deep breath and relax, you are getting way ahead of yourself.
The first things you need to do are...
1)Be sure the oil is not fuel diluted, if it is use cheap dino oil until you get this figured out.
2)Be sure the plugs are clean, not fouled and there are no deposits between the electrodes.
3)Disconnect the fuel pump so you will stop fouling the plugs and diluting the oil.
4)Clear the codes, be sure they cleared and then crank the engine for 7-10 seconds and recheck codes.
5)If no codes return then run a compression test and a cylinder leakdown test to verify engine mechanical is OK.


SPECS-Engine Compression.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #8
NAJ -

1) How to check for oil dilution? Smell? Increased volume on dip stick? Pour it out into a drain pan and look (for what)?
2) The plugs were replaced and the engine was run for about 15 seconds before I found the rocker was off its rocker and I pulled those new plugs back out - they were starting to show signs of rich mixture but are currently good on the bench.
3) The fuel pump was disconnected by means of disconnecting the HEP during the compression testing and other goofing around and is still off line.
4) I cleared codes and ran it with the new plugs and some other trials before I discovered the wayward rocker and while it ran like crap it didn't add any codes of interest - Only 12, 33, 36
5) I'm just about to get started for the day but as far as verifying mechanical is OK I'm going to start with looking directly at the mechanicals since the valve cover is off and the rocker is off. Compression test has been run (in the broke condition at least)
 

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Sorry if this coming off as getting back to basics. We would like to help you, but we need to know what exactly were dealing with here. What year GLHT, 85 or 86? Exactly what calibration is in the vehicle? Do you have a LM part #? Maybe it is a custom calibration from one of our vendors?

You state the transmission and electronics and brakes came out of a 87 turbo Z. Chrysler made a turbo z from 84-87. The Shelby Z came in 87. This was available in both TI and TII (intercooled) variations. The 87 Shelby Shelby Z (intercooled model) was a 2.2. This also came with the much beefier A555 manual tramsmission. The automatic Shelby Z was just the base Turbo I 2.2 variant with crappy log intake manifold and pull through throttle body. Almost completely different upper half of engine.

The underhood wiring harness on a 87 Daytona and 86 GLHT are quite different. They aren't interchangeable without a great deal of work. The power modules (ECU under the hood) are the same. The logic module (underpass kick panel) are very different. Some wiring reconfiguration would have had to be done before the 87 LM would have been able to function properly connected to a 86 GLHT harness. I suspect the underhood wiring harness is the original GLHT, and that the AIS, o2 sensor, and MAP sensor wiring has been grafted into it to get it to function. Whoever changed this, probably has now for all intensive purposes made it into 1987 electronics. That would be my guess. Perhaps they didn't quite get the 02 wiring changed properly? That would maybe explain why the o2 sensor circuit doesn't seem to function.

Sometimes pics can say a thousand words. Pictures of what were dealing with would be helpful. Pics of engine bay and LM would be good place to start.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
4 L-bodies;

1985 GLH-T body
Calibration: FWD Performance stage 3. "87 S3-M"

As for the various mechanical bits on the car, I wasn't involved in that swap (prior owner) so I'm somewhat foggy and what you state is educational to me. Its a T2 setup (intercooled, blow through, one piece non-log manifold. Not a 525 trans but at the moment I can't seem to locate the tag (mild recollection, 523, does that make sense?). The diff cover is cast and its cable shifty. It has the wiring for the T2 idle speed controller (though that doesn't / hasn't worked) and it has wiring for two types of remote MAP sensors. The MAP that's currently connected is one that I got either from Cindy or on Cindy's recommendation when I got the calibration. Also, the injectors are +20 new from Cindy at the same time I got the cal. Walboro 255. There's a nice new Turbos Unleashed cam in it though I forget the description and can't get their site up at the moment to determine what. 3" Exhaust from end to end.

I can't post pics without a few days to reconfigure - phone cam useless, real camera at work, no way to host that I can figure out.
 

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NAJ -

1) How to check for oil dilution? Smell? Increased volume on dip stick? Pour it out into a drain pan and look (for what)?
2) The plugs were replaced and the engine was run for about 15 seconds before I found the rocker was off its rocker and I pulled those new plugs back out - they were starting to show signs of rich mixture but are currently good on the bench.
3) The fuel pump was disconnected by means of disconnecting the HEP during the compression testing and other goofing around and is still off line.
4) I cleared codes and ran it with the new plugs and some other trials before I discovered the wayward rocker and while it ran like crap it didn't add any codes of interest - Only 12, 33, 36
5) I'm just about to get started for the day but as far as verifying mechanical is OK I'm going to start with looking directly at the mechanical's since the valve cover is off and the rocker is off. Compression test has been run (in the broke condition at least)
1)Yes, if the oil smells like fuel it is diluted.
2)You found a rocker arm that fell out, did that correct the engine misfire issues and your erratic compression test readings?
Normally the rockers come out when you have a lifter not pumping up.
3)At this point I am more concerned about verifying all basics are OK (Engine Mechanical/Cam Timing, Ignition, Fuel Pressure) before moving into electronics and calibrations, without a strong base the rest is irrelevant.
a)You stated "Fuel Pressure Checked Perfect", got any numbers to go with the "Perfect"?
b)Your MAP voltage is fluctuating because engine vacuum is fluctuating, again we need to verify Basics.
c)O2 is only a "Fuel Trimmer" for MPG and CO emissions, the fact that it is not reading/working is not relevant to the other issues you are having.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Just got back under the hood. Lifter socket is not cracked. Cam is Turbos Unleashed R5. I never messed with the cam timing, that was done by the engine builder.

Here we go: I push down on the #2 intake valve with the back of a hammer handle. I don't have the strength to fully stroke the valve, I can only get it down about 3/8" which I do by pushing with one hand and slapping the hammer head with the other. It comes up hitchingly, a number of short judder steps. Its come fully up (in line with the other valves both vertically and not appearing bent out of line) each of the 5x I've pushed it down but its a very small step from where it is to not coming up at all which it seems obvious is the source of my current predicament.

I need a short term fix to get through this so I can complete a project at work then I need to get alternate transportation (get the other GLH out of the garage that's only had 2k miles on it since 1989) before I can get into tearing the head off. And at that time I need to do a pile of work - Getting it to recognize O2 sensor, wideband install, grainger valve, front wheel bearings, starter, flywheel and clutch, steering rack (no hydraulics for as long as I can remember).
 

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Just got back under the hood. Lifter socket is not cracked. Cam is Turbos Unleashed R5. I never messed with the cam timing, that was done by the engine builder.

Here we go: I push down on the #2 intake valve with the back of a hammer handle. I don't have the strength to fully stroke the valve, I can only get it down about 3/8" which I do by pushing with one hand and slapping the hammer head with the other. It comes up hitchingly, a number of short judder steps. Its come fully up (in line with the other valves both vertically and not appearing bent out of line) each of the 5x I've pushed it down but its a very small step from where it is to not coming up at all which it seems obvious is the source of my current predicament.

I need a short term fix to get through this so I can complete a project at work then I need to get alternate transportation (get the other GLH out of the garage that's only had 2k miles on it since 1989) before I can get into tearing the head off. And at that time I need to do a pile of work - Getting it to recognize O2 sensor, wideband install, grainger valve, front wheel bearings, starter, flywheel and clutch, steering rack (no hydraulics for as long as I can remember).
Okay,
Thanks for the info on the engine parameters. The TU R5 cam I am very familiar with. I degreed and posted these cam events about 6 years ago on the other forum for Chris and others to view. Post # 439
This camshaft has .490" lift at valve on intake, and .501" lift on exhaust. That is about .070 more lift than stock. Much more duration too. That is quite a bit. Depending on what pistons are in engine, what headgasket, how much was taken off block and head during machining, you could be dangerously close to having piston to head interference in a timing belt failure situation. There should be room for no contact when everything is timed correctly. However during assembly, just bolting on the head and turning the engine over (without timing belt being on or not correctly timed) if one cam lobe was fully open, it could have easily made piston to valve contact. That could have been enough right there to slightly bend the valve. It has been done before, even by experienced engine builders.

Another issue to check will be the clearance of the valve retainer/valve lock/ to valve guide/valve seal at full valve lift. That is a real issue running this big of cam and must be checked! What can happen is the retainer or valve keeper can bottom out on the valve guide and or seal and it can try to eject the valve locks! This can be a disastrous chain of events. The valve can then drop in the cylinder and destroy the engine. In some cases windowing the block! I had a friend that this happened to. He was very fortunate in that the piston bent the valve instead and made it stick in the guide similar to your situation. Had the piston dropped into the cylinder, it would have windowed the block destroying much of the engine. In his case the valve was replaced along with the guide, and he was back up and running. He was very lucky!!!

One other thing to check is to make sure you have at least .050 clearance between the top of the retainer and the follower. This needs to be checked on all eight valves and at all ranges on cam lobe (on base corcle and cam lobe lift). This can also cause the valve locks to eject from the retainer if it doesn't have the necessary clearance. Trimming the followers with a grinder is the fix for this.

When you have aftermarket stuff in your cylinder head, normal production clearances tighten up in a hurry. Things people wouldn't even think of checking are things that must all be carefully checked. I do a lot of cylinder head work and have seen lots of questionable choices. It sounds like your doing a good job of narrowing down you problem. I don't see any way of fixing the valve/guide issue without removal.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yee ha howdy, I just got done commiting what I figure to be one full abomination and two quarter strength abominations. That's in addition to the the O2 sensor abomination that's already on my record. All of this to get me through a busy period in my one man business, 2 weeks tops (check back and get on my case if this isn't properly sorted in 2 weeks).

I put 4 oz. of Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas tank (this counts as 1/4 abomination) to maybe get some lubrication on the valve stems from the bottom though by the time that the valve stem comes out of the guide into the port much of the fuel mist is probably gone down stream. I then ran the pump for a minute to hopefully stir things up and get it to the fuel rail.

I used a medical syringe to get Mobil 1 inside the valve seal. I sent some of it between the valve stem and seal and some of it through the rubber toward the top. Then I tried cycling the valve and found it to move better but not freely. So I...

Used a hook tool to put two radial tears in the top of the valve seal. (this is the full abomination).

I lifted the cam up a bit to put the rocker back in place but only used anerobic on the #5 cap (another 1/4 abomination but its only for a few days) (But I don't see evidence it was sealed by the engine builder either so maybe no foul)

Compression test, cyl. #2: 96 psi (vs. 115 elsewhere). Perhaps due to having gas on the rings or perhaps cylinder damage from the gas, I'll have to check later but right now I'd prefer not to pull the plug when its hot.

Started up but still with some of the hitch or miss that has been present since putting this engine in which now I've come to start calling a sign of valve stick. As usual (especially in hot weather) it went away in under a minute. Went on an 8 mile drive including 4 gears to 4.5k getting on the freeway. Uneventful.

Now I've got to get on with business even though we're heading into the holiday weekend.

I've been in text with the engine builder and he'll get into it but I'd need to ship him the head (500 miles each way) and maybe it might make sense for me to either fix the head (I have mad machinist skills but not engine machinist skills) or to take it to a local (Detroit area) shop. I'll look at the 4 L's list above when it comes apart. Any other advice on this?

If in the next few days the rocker comes out I'm going to switch it off and let a tow truck do its job.
 

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No fuel smell is a good thing.
I am not familiar with any of your Mods, however and correct me if I am wrong...
Running a cam with higher lift/ duration usually results in lower engine vacuum which in turn is seen by the MAP sensor as more air entering the engine so the controller adds more fuel...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hmm, started to reply to NAJ's question but then saw the subtly to it and I'm going to sit back and see how others respond.

Now while I've got y'all's attention here's another line of questioning that will come into play when the head comes offa the thing. When I had the engine built I had the nifty Turbos Unleashed offset exhaust manifold header put on it but given that I had to install the engine and get the car running in a rush because I needed a car and given that I didn't have the corresponding offset in the down pipe I replaced the fancy exhaust manifold with whatever stock manifold was laying around. When I go back in I'll want to offset my down pipe and put back the fancy TU offset manifold. What's the easiest and / or best way to offset the down pipe? Heat and bend? Give it to an exhaust shop (who I'd probably not get along well with). Weld in pre-made bends (would need to find a welder with a hoist)? Is there a pre-made kit? I don't see anything on the TU website to accommodate that manifold.
 

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No fuel smell is a good thing.
I am not familiar with any of your Mods, however and correct me if I am wrong...
Running a cam with higher lift/ duration usually results in lower engine vacuum which in turn is seen by the MAP sensor as more air entering the engine so the controller adds more fuel...
NAJ,
All the cams readily available for our applications are pretty mild from a duration standpoint and use a wider LSA. I see where your going with this, and your points are valid, but these camshafts have been used successfully many times in the past on stock electronics. I have found the the camshaft profile numbers are eerily similar to many mild BBC camshafts. All are made to provide a decent vacuum at idle. Probably down to around 15-16 HG. at idle on a properly running vehicle, so maybe down 2-4 HG from a stock camshaft. Large LSA is good for a relatively clean idle standpoint, but a wide LSA provides some compromises with area under the curve. It compromises with some torque loss but has a more broad power curve. reduces valve overlap which helps idle quality. In a nutshell, the camshafts work and provides a substantial HP gain on a modified top end of engine.
 

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...Now while I've got y'all's attention here's another line of questioning that will come into play when the head comes offa the thing. When I had the engine built I had the nifty Turbos Unleashed offset exhaust manifold header put on it but given that I had to install the engine and get the car running in a rush because I needed a car and given that I didn't have the corresponding offset in the down pipe I replaced the fancy exhaust manifold with whatever stock manifold was laying around. When I go back in I'll want to offset my down pipe and put back the fancy TU offset manifold. What's the easiest and / or best way to offset the down pipe? Heat and bend? Give it to an exhaust shop (who I'd probably not get along well with). Weld in pre-made bends (would need to find a welder with a hoist)? Is there a pre-made kit? I don't see anything on the TU website to accommodate that manifold.
Your best bet is to just buy some mandrel bends and make your own downpipe. Aluminized steel is good, 409 or 304 stainless will last forever. I hear ya about exhaust shops. Your right, they won't be happy working on something like that. Most are hacks anyway. The hardest part will be to find or replicate the 3" donut flange where the pipe bolts to the manifold. Assuming your using the TU swingvalve too. Most exhaust places won't even try to make one. You'll have to probably fabricate from around the shifter forward. I would just find a good fabrication shop in your area and forgo the exhaust shops.
If the cylinder head was ported, you might be having a larger outlet on the exhaust ports than the inlet on the log exhaust manifold. That is a mismatch you don't want, but you already knew that.
 

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Just a couple of things I would like clarification on so I am up to par on what we are working with.
1)The engine is basically stock other than the camshaft?
2) You are using the stock 2.2L T-2 electronics with a 2.5L engine?
3)The car is still operating with a Stock, 2 Bar Calibration and Map Sensor?
4)Are you still using Stock 33 PPH Injectors, stock fuel pump and stock FPR?
5)Does the vehicle have an Adjustable Cam Sprocket.
6)Intercooled with Larger Turbo?
 
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